I've dropped plenty of game with mid power loads, most taken With a 255 LSWC
.45colt or .45 LC?
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Driftwood Johnson
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Sigh. I promised myself I was not going to chime in on this thread.
Schofield cartridge rims never had to be made smaller to fit into a Single Action Army.
Here is a photo of a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder with two original Benet primed, copper cased, folded rim cartridges Schofield rounds, along with four of my reloads in modern Starline brass.
Current rim diameter specification for 45 Schofield rims is .520. (vs .512 for 45 Colt). I have loaded oodles of 45 Schofield in modern Starline brass. Rim diameters tend to run .517 -.519. The rim diameters of the two original copper cased Schofield rounds are .517
As can be seen in this photo, everything fits nicely in the Colt cylinder.
Close, but not quite. Major Schofield modified a S&W American Model (Let's not forget, there were five distinct Top Break revolvers that S&W built on the large #3 frame.) His patented modification was to the latch to allow a mounted trooper to load and unload the revolver with one hand. The latching mechanism for the earlier American and Russian models pretty much takes two hands to open. Yes, I can do it in a pinch with one hand, but it is easier with one hand grasping the frame and shoving the latch up with my thumb and the other hand rotating the barrel down. Schofield's latch was a serpentine affair attached to the frame, rather than the barrel, like the other models. It was fairly simple for a mounted trooper to hold the revolver with one hand while operating the latch with his thumb, and brush the barrel against his leg to open it. I'm doing it sitting in a chair right now with a Schofield, but it is beyond me how a mounted trooper could control his horse with one hand on the reins, hold onto the revolver, and reload all at the same time, unless he had three hands. Personally I can't tell the front end of a horse from the rear end, so what do I know. As an aside, crafty old Daniel Wesson directed his engineers to find a way around Schofield's patent, but the Schofield model was only in production from 1875 until 1877 and they never found a way around Schofield's patent in that time. S&W had to pay a royalty to Schofield for all the revolvers they made using his patented latch.
This is a S&W New Model Number Three with the same style of barrel latch that S&W was using before Schofield patented his improvement.
This is how you operate the latch to open the revolver.
This is a Schofield Model. The serpentine shaped piece mounted to the frame near the hammer is the barrel latch.
This is how it is opened. Easy enough to do with one hand while brushing the barrel against one's leg in order to open the revolver. But I clearly do not have the skill to do this and reload while riding a horse. But mounted riders in 1875 did.
Anyway, in 1875 S&W did not want to be left out of potentially lucrative government contracts. Colt had already won contracts with the Army for the Single Action Army in 1873. At the time S&W was heavily involved making what eventually amounted to 150,000 Russian models, mostly for sale to Russia, Japan, and Turkey. The standard length cylinder that S&W had been using for all their large frame Top Break revolvers since 1869 was 1 7/16" long. This worked very well with the 44 S&W American and 44 Russian cartridges which are fairly short. However the 45 Colt cartridge was too long to fit into a 1 7/16" cylinder. S&W was not about to modify their tooling for a longer cartridge and frame that would accommodate the 45 Colt cartridge while they were so heavily involved producing a zillion Russian models. The government specified that revolvers purchased for the Army had to be 45 Caliber. So a compromise was struck where S&W would open up the bore slightly on the new revolvers from 44 to 45, but keep the short 1 7/16" cylinder. The Schofield model was the result, and the Schofield cartridge was developed specifically for it. Nothing to do with patents for the change to 45, just what the Army was specifying.
Regarding official nomenclature for the early 45 Colt and 45 Schofield revolvers, I am taking the liberty to post here information from Jerry Kuhnhausen's The Colt Single Action Revolvers A Shop Manual, Volumes 1 & 2. I always like to turn to Kuhnhausen because in my experience he has the most relevant infomation.
"Colt’s Revolver Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1873 (original long configuration)
Load Data: 250 grain min/255 grain max hollow base, lubricated bullet and 30 grains of FFg Black Powder. Copper cased and Benet system primed.
Commercial .45 Colt Black Powder Cartridge (with reloadable commercial case)
Load data: 250-255 grain hollow base, lubricated lead bullet, black powder load: 37-38 grains FFg Black Powder in a reloadable boxer primed case. 40 grains of FFg black powder in early folded/rolled head type cases.
Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875 (shorter M1873 ctg. revision)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max hollow based, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder. Copper cased and Benet system primed.
Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1882 and M1890 (reloadable version)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max. hollow base, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder.
Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1896 (Short M1890 ctg. revision)
Load data: 230 grain min/235 grain max hollow base, lubricated bullet and 28 grains of FFg black powder."
Funny you should ask. I have a reprint of the ARMY REVOLVERS and GATLING GUNS rules for inspection,originally published by the National Armory in Springfield Mass in 1875.(The same year the Schofield model was accepted by the Army.) So you can see for yourself what the Army was calling the Schofield model in 1875.
Finally, regarding 45 Colt vs 45 Long Colt, it has been a long time since I bought any commercially loaded 45 Colt ammo. I do remember one time though when I asked for a box of 45 Colt, the guy behind the counter asked me if I meant 45 Long Colt. Clearly, he had never heard of the Schofield cartridge, he just wanted to make sure I did not want some of that stubby, short, 45 ACP ammo. I am a die hard believer that the proper name for the cartridge is 45 Colt, but I have mellowed a bit in my old age and no longer get into knock down, drag out arguments about it.
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LightninST
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Carl N. Brown
Member
Looking at .45 revolver cases in my range pickup samples, I find headstamps .45 Schofield and .45 Colt.
My only live ammo is CCI shotshells labelled on the box and head stamped .45 Colt.
(I suspect the only reason Long was added was to force a distinction in the buying public's minds between .45 Colt and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol.)
My only live ammo is CCI shotshells labelled on the box and head stamped .45 Colt.
(I suspect the only reason Long was added was to force a distinction in the buying public's minds between .45 Colt and .45 Automatic Colt Pistol.)
Driftwood Johnson
Member
I have been picking up brass at CAS matches for a long time. Well, not so much now because I have trouble bending down and straightening up any more. Before that I was buying lots of commercial 45 Colt ammo. I don't recall ever seeing any 45 Colt ammo with a head stamp that said 45 Long Colt or 45 LC, or anything like that. But what do I know.
Jim Watson
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Just remember, George Schofield eventually shot himself.
Driftwood Johnson
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Yeah, but there is no concrete evidence he actually used one of his namesake revolvers.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Sorry. I was going by what I read in a gun rag. Should have known not to trust a journalist.
And that, for me, settles that. Thank you, Mr. Driftwood.
Hokkmike
Member
45LC = 45C
End of equation.
End of equation.
Jim Watson
Member
His wiki biography said he did, but that is no more reliable than your typical gun board.
BobWright
Member
Driftwood Johnson said:
"It was fairly simple for a mounted trooper to hold the revolver with one hand while operating the latch with his thumb, and brush the barrel against his leg to open it. I'm doing it sitting in a chair right now with a Schofield, but it is beyond me how a mounted trooper could control his horse with one hand on the reins, hold onto the revolver, and reload all at the same time, unless he had three hands."
Drift, I once rewound, emptied, and reloaded a 35 mm Canon SLR on horseback, with gloves on! Its fairly easy to hold the opened revolver in the left hand, along with the reins, while the right had feeds cartridges into the revolver. Even if your horse is fairly skittish.
Colt SAA or S&W top break, the gun is held in the left hand along with the reins. This is the way Colt intended the revolver to be emptied and reloaded, mounted or afoot. I think Bill Grover was full of prunes.
Bob Wright
"It was fairly simple for a mounted trooper to hold the revolver with one hand while operating the latch with his thumb, and brush the barrel against his leg to open it. I'm doing it sitting in a chair right now with a Schofield, but it is beyond me how a mounted trooper could control his horse with one hand on the reins, hold onto the revolver, and reload all at the same time, unless he had three hands."
Drift, I once rewound, emptied, and reloaded a 35 mm Canon SLR on horseback, with gloves on! Its fairly easy to hold the opened revolver in the left hand, along with the reins, while the right had feeds cartridges into the revolver. Even if your horse is fairly skittish.
Colt SAA or S&W top break, the gun is held in the left hand along with the reins. This is the way Colt intended the revolver to be emptied and reloaded, mounted or afoot. I think Bill Grover was full of prunes.
Bob Wright
BobWright
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Yes, the cartridge was know commercially as the .45 Smith & Wesson. Only recently has the term .45 Schofield been applied, long after the cartridge was discontinued, about 1934.
Bob Wright
BobWright
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As to cartridge rims being too large (in diameter) to fit into the Colt Single Action Army, I think there is some confusion with the .45 M1909 cartridge, intended for use in the Colt New Service revolver. These rounds, which were only made at Frankford Arsenal and never commercially produced, did have larger diameter rims than the .45 Colt cartridge. They would chamber and fire in the SAA, but could only be loaded in every other chamber.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Bob
So this 35MM Canon SLR must be a pretty big hand cannon, huh? Just kidding.I know what a SLR is, although the past few I have owned have been digital. Have not needed to load film in quite a while. Wouldn't know where to get it developed any more anyway.
But I submit that you are probably a better horseman than me, which ain't saying much.
I do agree. I always transfer a revolver to my left hand to load it, poking the fresh rounds into the chambers with my slightly more educated right hand.
Never had to do it on horseback though. Not a lot of places to ride horses while heeled in this neck of the woods.
Jim Watson
Member
Colt made SAAs in .455 and .476 for the English trade.
Rim diameters are listed at .530 to .535".
Got a couple of Webleys to drop in that Colt cylinder?
Rim diameters are listed at .530 to .535".
Got a couple of Webleys to drop in that Colt cylinder?
Steve Milbocker
Member
Most hunters I’ve seen would be better off knotting their reins and hanging them on the horn and using both hands as they wish. Better for the horse too
Driftwood Johnson
Member
How's This?
I only have one of the 1909 45 Colt cartridges with the really wide diameter rim in my cartridge collection. That's it second from the right. The one with the really wide rim, next to the modern 45 Colt. All the rest of the cartridges in this photo are various old 45 Colt cartridges. That's a copper cased, Benet primed round all the way on the left. The interesting thing to notice with most of these old 45 Colt rounds is how tiny the rims are. Modern SAAMI spec calls out rim diameter of the 45 Colt cartridge as .512. I mentioned that earlier. But during the late 19th Century, long before any rifles, or revolvers with extractors were chambered for it, typical 45 Colt rims were tiny. Some of those rims are as tiny as .505 and .506 in diameter. This makes sense, because the SAA used an ejector rod, not an extractor to poke the empties out from the inside. All the rim had to do was support the round in the cylinder and keep it from being shoved in when struck by the firing pin. My reload in modern brass all the way on the right has a rim diameter of .508, .004 shy of .512. The 1909 round has a whopping rim diameter of .537.
Here is a 2nd Gen SAA at the top of the photo and a Colt New Service at the bottom of the photo. Both are chambered for 45 Colt. I do not have any .476 rounds in my cartridge collection, but I do have a .455 Colt (with the gray bullet) and a .455 Mark II (with the black bullet). Rim diameter of the .455 Colt is right about .430. Rim diameter of the .455 MK II is right about .524. I do not know anything about these cartridges, whatever the spec is for rim diameters, that is what I actually measured on these two. Also in the photo is the 1909 45 Colt with the .537 rim diameter and a modern round in a Starline case with the rim diameter of .508.
First, the SAA cylinder loaded with modern 45 Colt ammo and the 1909 round. The headstamp is FA 12 13 meaning the round left the government Frankford Arsenal in December of 1913. The 1909 round is so tight it is actually rubbing against the ratchet teeth star and is a little bit tight to extract. Clearly two of these rounds would not fit next to each other, their rims would interfere with each other.
A bit more space between chambers in the New Service. Lots of room if I had more of the 1909 cartridges to load.
Here is the Colt cylinder with the 1909 round and the two 455 rounds. The Mk II round is just small enough, with its .524 rim diameter that I think the cylinder could accommodate a full cylinder full. A bit more dicey with the slightly larger rim of the 455 Colt round. Perhaps six would fit in, perhaps not. I don't have any more to try with.
And the New Service cylinder. Clearly lots of room for all these different rounds in this cylinder.
Jim Watson
Member
I wish I still had my collection of The Handgunner, Ltd., with an article describing a study of the matter using gauges "from the Rolls Royce toolroom."
Jim Watson
Member
I would agree except their Junior Advertising Copywriters think "Series 70" means "Lacking a firing pin block," too.
Does this statement apply only to revolvers, and not to 1894 .45 Colt lever guns?
Alaskamike
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I'm always baffled at the religious argument regarding .45 Long Colt vs. .45 Colt.
We use the terms 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm and 9mm NATO mostly interchangeably, and nobody has a coronary about it. We all know what's being referred to and life goes happily along. On the other hand, in most gun forums, anyone who dares utter the term .45 Long Colt instantly encounters the ".45 Colt Reeducation Experience".
If we're going to be truly sticklers for cartridge naming accuracy, then everyone referring to ".38 Special" is in fact incorrect. Per Roy Jinks, S&W Historian, the proper and complete name is ".38 S&W Special". Let's face it, most popular cartridges are known by more than one name. Who blows a gasket over .45 Auto vs .45 ACP? Or maybe .44 Magnum vs .44 Remington Magnum?
We use the terms 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, 9x19mm and 9mm NATO mostly interchangeably, and nobody has a coronary about it. We all know what's being referred to and life goes happily along. On the other hand, in most gun forums, anyone who dares utter the term .45 Long Colt instantly encounters the ".45 Colt Reeducation Experience".
If we're going to be truly sticklers for cartridge naming accuracy, then everyone referring to ".38 Special" is in fact incorrect. Per Roy Jinks, S&W Historian, the proper and complete name is ".38 S&W Special". Let's face it, most popular cartridges are known by more than one name. Who blows a gasket over .45 Auto vs .45 ACP? Or maybe .44 Magnum vs .44 Remington Magnum?
Heretic!
Alaskamike
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