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45LC in 410 Pardner shotgun?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by berettaprofessor, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    This may be an entirely stupid question, but can one safely fire a 45 Long Colt cartridge in a 410 Pardner Shotgun? I know the barrel won't be rifled, but I'm looking for an inexpensive "barn gun" that might be useful for snakes (410) and larger critters such as raccoons (45LC) at relatively short distances.
     
  2. Tolkachi Robotnik

    Tolkachi Robotnik Member

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    Probably not.

    It will probably go in and go off. Shotgun pressures are not near what is endured by centerfire cartridges, and it could blow up in your hands, taking off part of your forehead and maybe an eye or two.

    This doesn't mean that someone hasn't done it and thinks it is a good enough idea.

    At the very least the cases will probably stick in the shotgun and you'll have to take a rod to knock them out.

    Bullets will also jump a distance, and you can expect leading or a pressure surge as the bullet rattles into the forcing cone area.
     
  3. hipoint

    hipoint Member

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    I actually tried this, if you had a very low loading of the .45 colt pressures wouldn't be too much of an issue, but if you put a "regular" load in it, you could have issues with pressure... so it could be unsafe and the chances of you getting a "normal" load in the .45 colt on accident would be too great. Your eyes/face aren't worth a couple hundred bucks that it would take to buy something else.

    aside from that, when I tried this the round would not chamber all the way and I broke my extractor. Just use a rifled slug, that way you're cool and no worries about it blowing up. a .410 slug has more power than people give it credit for. Sure it isn't a 250 grain .45 colt, but they are pretty devastating and would be more accurate anyhow. FYI, I also tried to see if a .41 magnum would chamber, nope.

    If you search around online there are some folks making hotrod .410 slugs that are heavier than normal ones, it'll do anything you need it to do.

    I own a farm and wanted something like this, I bought a rossi circuit judge and was terribly disappointed in it's accuracy... I'm still of the opinion that a rifled slug is the way to go. Better yet, you could sell the .410 and get a beat up single shot 12 gauge, then you know you'll have enough power. I keep one in the farm vehicle covered in used motor oil to keep it from rusting all to pieces, probably work fine in the barn as well.
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Unless the .410 is specifically made to fire .45 Colt in it, it is not advisable.

    The .410 bore is - ehhhh? oh yea!
    .410" diameter.
    Add the fact that a .410 full choke reduces the diameter to .392".

    The .45 Colt bullet is .452" diameter.

    A rifled slug is slightly smaller then bore diameter, hollow, and can easily swage down to go through any degree of choke.

    A solid, and oversize .45 Colt bullet can't.

    So you can see there might be a problem!

    Regardless of that?
    I think you will find a 3" .410 #6 shot shell will kill any coon that ever walked "at relatively short distances."

    And it will be much safer around your barn & livestock then a ricocheting .45 Colt slug punching holes in things that shouldn't have holes.

    rc
     
  5. hipoint

    hipoint Member

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    ^ what he said.... RC has probably saved my dumb butt a pile of money in hospital bills since I've been a member here... at the very least saved me quite a bit of money on wasted ammo trying stupid things like this. Wish I had been a member when I had the same idea, could have saved myself an extractor pin and a box of .45colt and .41 mag ammo...

    people don't give the lowly .410 enough credit, it's been around a long time and has taken quite a few animals substantially larger than a raccoon.

    The "collateral damage" bit was especially insightful, a .45 colt bullet bouncing around a barn could cost quite a bit of money. I read an article by Chuck Hawks I think (could be mistaken about the writer) who shot an old log cabin with .45 colt out of a long gun, said even at very long ranges it went clean through the logs and out the other side...

    For most of my small critter dispatching I now use CCI's fragmenting ammo for a .22. Those things break apart pretty reliably and are a raccoon's wost nightmare in the poultry coop. With the added benefit of not being too loud at 3 a.m. when my more than tolerant neighbors are resting peacefully.
     
  6. 4sixteen

    4sixteen Member

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    My H&R Survivor has a rifled barrel and is designed to fire both 45 Colt and .410. They say don't forget to remove the full choke if you're gonna fire a 45 Colt round. :eek: :D

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  7. hipoint

    hipoint Member

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    my experience with the rossi circuit judge was exactly what everyone said it would be... rifled barrel with shotgun shells is basically worthless. at about 10 paces it made such a donut that a dead on aim at a tin can resulted in about 3 pellets hitting it and a big circle of destruction around it... I really wish someone would come up with something suitable for this though. Would be really cool to have something capable of both that is not an over-under.

    Not sure what "choke" the rossi had though and if it would have made a difference if it were tighter, but the fact that you had to change chokes to switch between ammo kinda negated anything cool about the gun...
     
  8. hipoint

    hipoint Member

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    4sixteen, how does your gun handle both types of rounds? I'd love to own one that actually worked well!

    and have you tried firing the shotshells without the shotgun choke in place? Just curious.
     
  9. 4sixteen

    4sixteen Member

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    I really like this rifle. It's accurate enough for close range hunting as a 45 Colt. As a .410 with the choke screwed in it's my grouse slayer. However, without the choke, it doesn't pattern worth a darn.
     
  10. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    Thanks everyone. I knew there are dual-made 410/45LC shotguns but didn't know about the Pardner and I didn't think about 410 slugs; in fact, I wasn't aware they are available since I'd never seen them. But I see I can order them from Midway. And I was able to find 410 Buckshot 000 locally, which should do the trick.
     
  11. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Pressure of standard .45 loads isn't going to be the problem. The problem will arise when a .451" - .452" jacketed or hardcast bullet hits the choke of the .410 bore. Not a good idea.
     
  12. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    I have fired .45 Colt CCI shotshells in a .410 shotgun for very close in vermin control. Shotgun barrels are not intended for .45 Colt ball ammo.
     
  13. Clark

    Clark Member

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    CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
    I did a stress analysis on a 45/70 handi rifle ~ 10 years ago. My father, the great gun designing chief engineer, helped me and a mechanical engineering professor helped me too.
    I calculated the action pin in double sheer, the hoop stress on the chamber with Lame's formula, and the section modulus on cross sections of the breech face.
    I concluded it was so much stronger than the brass that it did not matter.
    Some people on line said I was not qualified, so I validated my calculations by working up to double the max published powder charge for a Ruger #1 45/70 [the highest published load I could find].
    Reference loads:
    1) "Loads for the 45/70" from the H.P.White laboratory via "American
    Rifleman" 1950~1968 via "NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 says:
    405 gr Rem S.P., 17.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 25,240 pounds pressure, for 1886 Win
    2) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
    400 gr cast, 16.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 27,000 cup, for 1886 Win
    3) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
    385 cast gr cast, 17.5 gr Unique, 1411 fps, 38,500 cup, for Ruger #1
    4) My handi rifle validation test: 38 gr Unique 405 gr cast... 87 kpsi [Quickload]

    Still some doubted me. This is a lesson in life. If math and test data will not convince them, then what kind of person are you dealing with?
    Years later it was published that the handi rifle was in the lever action level of strength, not the highest. We have some dumb stuff going on the the gun culture. We need more myth busters.
    -------------------------------------------
    So I saw an off brand [OEM Stevens] break action 410 at the guns show for $50.
    I could see it had it where it counts, kid.
    So with 45 Colt brass and CCI200 large rifle primers I worked up to a 454 Casull double load.
    That was 40 gr H110 405 gr cast bullet 2.75" OAL.
    I realize that is not a 454 OAL, but H110 will not compress much.

    I reported that test a couple times to THR in 2004
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=99238
    [​IMG]
    Here is the pic I posted in 2004

    What does it all mean?
    I have tried to blow up a lot of guns over the last 13 years.
    Break action 410s with thick walls are about as strong as guns get.
    That .48" chamber with .275" thick walls is a lot stronger than any 454 revolver with thin walls. Ruger may have specialty steel in that revolver that can go to 260 ksi, but revolvers with those thin chamber walls as strong as a thick walled 410.
     
  14. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Don't do it, Period.
    Contrary to what you see on the internet, firing cartridges not designed for the original weapon is ill advised and stupid.
     
  15. CraigC
    • Contributing Member

    CraigC Member

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    Which is not a Pardner shotgun. Handi-rifles and shotguns are built on different frames. The shotgun frame is not as strong as the rifle and is why H&R won't fit rifle barrels to shotgun receivers.


    You shouldn't be allowed to post such nonsense. Even if you can stuff 40gr H110 into a .45Colt case with a 405gr bullet, to shoot it in ANY firearm is stupid beyond measure.

    The problem with these guns is not that they are weak but that we do NOT know how strong they are.

    None of which addresses what happens when that bullet hits the choke.
     
  16. Clark

    Clark Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    That 16 gr H&R Partner lower I also got for $50 at a gun show, I milled a lot of material out of the reciever to get that 50 caliber Green Mountain barrel to fit. The receiver is made of grainy cast iron.
    I have never shot anything with my wildcat "50CB" in that H&R Partner 16 ga lower, except compressed loads of either Bullseye or Red Dot.

    The pressure is so high that Quickload calculations would mean nothing in a straight wall case.
     
  17. goon

    goon Member

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    I slugged the choke on my H&R .410 Topper once and it came out at .389.
    I would never consider shooting a .45 LC load out of it. Recipe for death.
     
  18. 4sixteen

    4sixteen Member

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    Regarding hot loads in a Handi-Rifle, in practical terms I found the spring extractor the limiting factor. It doesn't have enough force to eject cases after a certain point resulting in a stuck case that needs to be removed by knocking it out from the muzzle end with a cleaning rod or whatever.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  19. Clark

    Clark Member

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    CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

    The Western Fields [Stevens OEM] 410 I got for $50 Went through a lot before the choke split.

    1) 45 Colt brass with CCI200 Large Rifle Primer:
    a)
    37 gr H110 .452" FMJ 230 Montana Gold, 1.754"
    39 gr H110, .452" MT Au 230 gr FMJ 1.71"
    b)
    30 gr H110 .458" hard cast 300 gr #457191, 1.775", published at 53,700 cup
    32 gr H110 .458" hard cast 300 gr #457191, 1.68"
    32 gr H110 .458" hard cast 300 gr #457191, 1.63" case head expands .002"
    40 gr H110 .458" hard cast 300 gr #457191, 1.837" primer leaked, case head expands .004"
    40 gr H110 .458" hard cast 300 gr #457191, 1.86" primer top hat and cratered but did not leak, case head expands .002"
    c)
    30 gr H110 .458" 405 gr hard cast 2.165"
    30 gr H110 .458" 405 gr hard cast 1.85"
    40 gr H110 .458" hard cast 405 gr 2.75"
    40 gr H110 .458" 405 gr hard cast 2.1" case head expands .004", case body cracking, butt of gun on concrete, recoil breaks wooden stock wrist

    2) 7.62x54R brass put in the lathe and made to fit 410 chamber:
    a)
    45.5 gr H110 .452" 230 gr Montana Gold FMJ 2.900"
    The choke spit.
    The Silver front bead sight fell out.
    Bore is .406"
    Choke is now .396"
    Choke was .385"
     

    Attached Files:

  20. willypete

    willypete Member

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    Thanks, Clark, for all the destructive testing you do. Your posts are always interesting to read, and contain insightful information. Some people just don't understand the point of DT; don't let their bunched panties keep you down. :D

    Given that .45 Colt and .410 shotshell operate at nearly the same pressure (14kpsi vs 13.5kpsi) and that there's a huge freebore for the .45 Colt, it's pretty easy to understand why people who have shot .45 Colt through .410 shotguns over the last 140 years haven't blown themselves up with their "recipes for death." :rolleyes:;)

    Sure, the choke may eventually split (mine hasn't), but the practice itself is pretty safe when using normal-pressure .45 Colt loads with soft lead bullets.
     
  21. Clark

    Clark Member

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    Thanks willypete

    I just ran some numbers

    2.5" 410 SAAMI chamber:
    Rim dia .536" - .541"
    Rim thick .0532" - .0672"
    base dia [@ .0627"].4780" - .4830"
    mouth dia [@2.5"] .4630" - .4680"

    444 Marlin SAAMI brass:
    Rim dia .504 -.514"
    Rim thick .053" - .063"
    base dia [@ .2"].4618 - .4698"
    mouth dia [@2.24"] .4469" - .4549

    444 brass in 410 chamber clearance
    Rim dia .022" - .037"
    Rim thick [interfere .0098"] - .0142"
    base dia .0082 - .0212"
    mouth dia .0081 - .0211"

    45 Colt SAAMI brass:
    Rim dia .500" - .512"
    Rim thick .049" - .060"
    base dia [@ .2"].474 - .480"
    mouth dia [@.99"] .474" - .480

    45 Colt in 410 chamber clearance:
    Rim dia .024" - .041"
    Rim thick [interfere .0068" ] - .0185"
    base dia [interfere .002"] - .009"
    mouth dia [interpolating 410 taper to .472"][interfere .008"] - .003"


    Of course if something does not fit, a Redding carbide 45 Colt die is .466" and the brass will spring back to .468", so it is going to fit.

    In the world of sloppy SAAMI standards, this is a good fit.

    About as good as a SAAMI 303 Brit case in a SAAMI 303 Brit chamber:)
     
  22. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    ?

    The operant idea there is that the barrel did split. In addition, there is no way to tell when that failure will occur.

    Define "pretty safe". How safe is pretty safe?

    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    Pete
     
  23. Dr T

    Dr T Member

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    All said, a box 410 slugs or buckshot may be a much less stressful way to go about eliminating the occasional barn bandit.

    BTW, if the band bandit is wearing a white strip down the back, rather than a mask, I suggest that you get it to step outside the barn before shooting it.
     
  24. willypete

    willypete Member

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    "Pretty safe" indicates a low likelihood of damage to myself or others when failure does occur.

    You've never used a flat-bladed screwdriver as a chisel, pry-bar, or paint scraper, have you? ;)
     
  25. Sun Tzu warrior

    Sun Tzu warrior Member

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    Hey Beretta Prof, here you can get .410 slugs at wally world. About the only kind of ammo they have left, probably a lot easier to find than .45 LC.
     
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