45lc lever gun, Ruger only loads?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by horsey300, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    So quick question, if I'm picking up a Rossi/win/henry 45 lc would it be safe to run the blackhawk loads? This has always piqued my curiosity.....
     
  2. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    Don't see why not in the Rossi or win Rossi made them in 454.
     
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  3. kelbro

    kelbro Member

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    Not sure but my Marlin 1894 handles them just fine.

    I did learn that there was no reason for 'Ruger only' loads since the 45 Colt normal (not Cowboy) loads drop deer and hogs right in their tracks. That's a big chunk of lead and it doesn't spoil much meat.
     
  4. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    I've been told by others that they were told by Henry that whatever a Marlin 94 can shoot, so can the Big Boy and it appears Buffalo Bore's website says that the Henry's can shoot their +P ammo with bullets under 300gr, but 300 and over they say the bullet is too long for the Henry's to cycle.

    I'd honestly like to know what modern production .45 Colt lever actions (not based on the 1866 and 1873) cannot handle Ruger only .45 Colt.
     
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  5. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Read some Paco Kelly in your free time.

    Marlin, Winchester 92/94, Rossi 92, and Henry’s can handle the pressure just not the COAL.

    Marlins are the most readily modified to handle longer COAL. You’ll have to read some Mic McPherson to learn about that.
     
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  6. Project355

    Project355 Member

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    Yah, Ruger/TC only is fine.... As long as you dont put em in your New Vaquero or Peacemaker by accident.
     
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  7. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    A gun is designed around a specification, generally that's sami. I would not shoot high pressure loads in a lever gun unless I had documentation from the manufacturer saying that it was tested or approved for that pressure. For some reason people ask this question once a month expecting that exceeding a specification is a good thing. Can you get away with it, maybe. Your 45c is not a 44 mag and should not be treated as such. The Rugers are designed from the start to handle higher pressure and are special like the ruger rifles in 45-70. A rapid disassembly is not required to prove this science.
     
  8. Project355

    Project355 Member

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    @AJC1 Ruger never stated their arms were "rated" for higher pressures, in fact the opposite is true. Your argument is not nonsense, but factually incorrect.

    No arms maker will say its ok to use greater than SAAMI spec ammunition, but is often done. Why? Because SAAMI must keep specs to account for all the old, weaker guns that have been made.
     
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  9. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    I'm familiar with Paco on the .41 mag, I'll add Paco+45 to the to do list, thanks!
     
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  10. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

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    It depends on model. Some you can, some you shouldn’t. For example, a modern 1892 by Rossi, Chiappa, Winchester, Taylor, etc are all pretty equal, strength wise, and they can all handle mid 20k to 30k CUP pressure.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  11. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    I have load manuals that list 45 70 ruger only loads. That means it's been tested and I doubt Lyman would put themselves on the line legally if ruger did not agree.
     
  12. forty_caliber

    forty_caliber Member

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    From my understanding, Henry's are NOT rated for Ruger/TC load levels.

    .40
     
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  13. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    For deer and hogs, you may have a point.
    But some folks hunt large animals that tip the scales at over 1k pounds. For those, the extra is definitely preferrable.
     
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  14. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    These aren't the same
    The above is opinion and extrapolation, but doesn't raise to the level of documentation...or even to the level of consent or agreement by Ruger
     
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  15. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Im not sure any of them are rated for hotter than standard pressure loads. In fact, Im pretty sure all manufacturers only recommend factory ammunition that is (presumably) standard pressure. So that means, handloads are not even rated for any gun made since manufacturers started recommending any ammo.

    "Ruger only load" may only be a colloquialism.
     
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  16. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    Perhaps there's a use for a fast handling non ar15 spitting 225 gr Barnes at 1600 fps??? Perhaps the places I'll use such a thing have other fare to offer??? Perhaps my deer would prefer to see if standing a titch farther away will defeat a hot ftx? Just saying...........we can cuz we do ;)
     
  17. troy fairweather

    troy fairweather Member

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    454 casull is 65,000 psi so I think the 92 is good for not 45colt
     
  18. Project355

    Project355 Member

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    @ AJC1 Well, which is it? The manufacturer or the reloading manual? Maybe people wouldn't ask once a month if you kept your story straight...... And there is no way anyone, except maybe Bill Ruger's ghost, knows if any Ruger arm is "designed from the start" to handle higher pressure. Officially, Ruger disagrees with that statement.

    On the other hand, in practical terms, a lever action rifle of the type made to handle 357 Magnum (45,000cup), 44 Magnum (about 40,000cup), 454 Casull (about 60,000cup), yet chambered for 45 Colt (about 15,000cup), offers some CAREFUL safety room to push the pressure envelope. No manufacturer will endorse that practice. There are many thousands of older revolvers, and rifles still extant that are chambered for 45 Colt. DON'T USE HIGHER PRESSURE AMMUNITION IN THOSE. Even if its a rifle. That is because some older rifles were "black powder only" (with the change being the barrel for smokeless, in most cases), but also that there were older steels, and questionable heat treatment methods. Read up on the very detailed heat treat of the old 03 Springfield rifle where, paraphrasing Hatcher (who was there) very well trained and experienced workers judged the temperature by the color of the steel, and that colors, and therefore temperature, was subject to great variation depending on the worker, and how bright the light was that was shining into the forging area of the plant. Many variables, so....old rifle, say pre WWII, its an iffy thing. Probably ok... but.... ya know... why chance it. Judging by the relative pressures, the weak link is most likely the 45Colt cartridge casing. There are beefed up casings available. It has been said - the 45 Colt is not a "magnum" and it isn't, but, you can get a bit more performance in newer, well made rifles. And as always, when pushing the envelope with anything that can hurt you bad, its best to take baby steps, and make careful observations.
     
  19. kelbro

    kelbro Member

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    Yep, I have loaded many up at the top end and they do just fine but for me (as I could have disclaimed earlier) standard loads have not disappointed.

    My Redhawk was stuffed with 300gr Buffalo Bores for my Alaska trips so, yes there is a time and place for mo' power!
     
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  20. AJC1

    AJC1 Member

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    For one I said I would never do it. I am allowed to load how I choose. I will also not condone people going past Sami spec, I always advocate they get the cartridge that suites the goal they are after. You want a high pressure cartridge get a 454, a 460 or a 44 mag. I understand that people choose to exceed spec but I will always advocate against it. Half of the people who ask these questions are new to reloading and will get themselves in a world of hurt in a fast way. Way to many people liken themselves to Elmer Keith with none of the experience. I sleep easy in my position to keep it in spec. The 45-70 was my example because the loads are very clear on what they apply to. Historic guns and antiquities get the lowest level, modern lever get load 2 and ruger #1 and #3 get the highest limit. This is not clear at all with 45c. There is no tiers in any load manual I have for 45c. All new firearms are not safe for increased loads and I see no documents indicating which are safe for increased loading. I choose to not try loads published in a magazine and or on a internet bulletin board. We as a group tell people regularly to always verify their loads. How do you accomplish this "safety step"? What is the master reference.

    With all that said I dont care to argue, I figured I would provide clarity on my position as that's what I do and everyone is free to make their own decision. In the end as long as we all have 10 fingers I'm happy.
     
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  21. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    The action may be if properly heat treated and beefed up, which the .454 Rossi's definitely are since they weigh more.

    The focus is on .45 Colt and I've seen it said that if the same rifle is available in .44 Mag, it can take the same pressure in .45 Colt.

    I also take everything the gun manufacturers say with a grain of salt, it's the ammo companies that I take to heart because they test their ammunition in a few guns. I've yet to see Buffalo Bore come out and say any current production .45 Colt rifle is not capable of shooting their +P .45 Colt ammunition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  22. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    Ummmmmm my dodge, toyota, and ford may or may not run 100.... But the chevy is always 1 mph below the speed limit ;)
    I see what you're getting at, I've also seen an evolution in load data and metallurgy, just trying to comprehend where the tech is at currently, thankfully we've lasted this long without reference to .45 raptor, .450 bushmaster, and .460. I think we're at a good point, I stretched a brass framed bp revolver in my youth so obviously with the henry I was thinking of the steel, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't asking too much of a nostalgic setup before I prematurely wore it out...
    I have no doubt standard loads will perform satisfactorily in most average situations, my local regs measure deer effectiveness in ft-lbs :rofl: and there are other places where as you say, (paraphrase) more really is more, I truly would like a .44 with a proper bore dimension, but alas I was down to this or .45-70, having decided on the .458 soccom already and thinking of my recoil sensitive family members, the .45 lever seems like an obvious answer for mild to brute force sub 250 yds (especially sub 50 yds when teeth may matter more lol).
     
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