fatcat4620
Member
Sam from your post your saying that 5.45 can dump about 1100 foot pounds in 10 inches. It may not be deep enough for some but that must be one nasty hole. Can you show me some M193 that can do that?
5.45x39 vs 5.56
- Thread starter xxxleafybugxxx
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I started elementary school in 1974 so to think of it the AK 74 started being fielded by the USSR. I first saw notice the difference in looks when looking at Russian soldiers in Afghanistan during their war with the Mujahedeens , circa 80s. I just like the looks of the orange bakelite mags . Pretty cool.
Sam Cade
Member
"Energy dump" is a meaningless term. Tissue disruption is what matters and 10" isn't enough penetration to reliably reach vital organs on an human. Remember the FBI set their minimum standard for handgun penetration at 12" for a reason.
Uhh, no, but that isn't a reasonable comparison since M193 wasn't designed to blow up prairie dogs.
We are talking about the commercial Hornady 5.45 V-Max load aren't we? Hornady loads that same weight, same nominal caliber bullet in 5.56/.223 as well.
It behaves identically.
There is only .003 difference in bullet diameter between the two so the only variable for identically constructed bullets is initial velocity.
There is no special faerie dust that makes the 5.45 extra deadly.
allaroundhunter
Member
They set this so that any round passing the test would reliably penetrate deep enough into a body AFTER passing through a barrier. From no angle into a human chest is 12" required to reach vital organs. I know that, at least in my body, 10" will get you a through and through shot. And rifle rounds, due to their extremely high velocities can cause tissue disruption within organs that they do not even reach.
Sam Cade
Member
12" is minimum...and those barriers include things like arms.
You must be tiny.
I'm short and stocky. I would be considered a little guy.
From my armpit to the center of my chest is 13". Front to back my chest is about a foot thick. My upper arms are about 6" thick.
Right. Sometimes...but not always.
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allaroundhunter
Member
Actually, I'm pretty sure when I read about the procedure the "barriers" were to ensure that the round would penetrate far enough after impacting glass windows/windshields of vehicles. (but that could be wrong, I'm not an expert)
I'm not too tiny, but not huge. 5'10" and 170 lbs. About 8-10" from my armpit to center of my chest, about the same (maybe a little less) from the front of my chest to my back.
But as you said, that 12" was the minimum for handgun penetration. It has been proven that rifles will cause worse wounds without needing as much penetration as a handgun.
Sam Cade
Member
Could you expound on this and give us some citations on how this supposedly works?
... ... ... ...
This is a good read.
http://www.nps.gov/pinn/naturescience/upload/ballistic_injury.pdf
Gunnerboy
Member
What many are failing to realize in the accuracy department is that the commi's produced a spam can to our 20rnd box they could care less about minute of angle out of an ak74 so they didnt take the time or the expense to build a match grade round that would be fired from the hip or sprayed from full auto.
Anecdotal reports say the 5.45 is an accurate cartridge for surplus.
The 5.45 can be found extremely cheaply. The 5.56 is a little more powerful, and very accurate rounds are easier to find. Personally, for shooting at people, I don't think it matters: any centerfire rifle round more powerful than .22 Magnum is powerful enough, IMO. I don't expect any rounds to be magic. I just want to put holes in the target, and plan to keep doing it until I run out of ammunition or targets.
John
The 5.45 can be found extremely cheaply. The 5.56 is a little more powerful, and very accurate rounds are easier to find. Personally, for shooting at people, I don't think it matters: any centerfire rifle round more powerful than .22 Magnum is powerful enough, IMO. I don't expect any rounds to be magic. I just want to put holes in the target, and plan to keep doing it until I run out of ammunition or targets.
John
Lloyd Smale
Member
I can about remember back when i got my first ak. they about gave away 762x39 ammo back then. Lots of people own them now and im sure they sell a heck of alot more ammo because of it but majicaly the price has gone up substantialy. My guess is youll see the same thing with the 5.45x39. Once they get enough hooked into buying them youll see all that cheap ammo dry up and youll pay the same for it as 223 ammo.
rc109a
Member
Sam Cade
Thanks for those references. I am writing a paper and those came in handy!
I too was thinking about getting a 5.45, but one issue I seem to find is the lack of reload-able ammunition. Has this changed? I have been told that no one makes brass cases and the bullet selection is meager. I do understand that factor ammo is cheap and that is a highlight for me, but I also want the ability to reload ammunition myself for accuracy. Is this a possibility? Thanks...
Thanks for those references. I am writing a paper and those came in handy!
I too was thinking about getting a 5.45, but one issue I seem to find is the lack of reload-able ammunition. Has this changed? I have been told that no one makes brass cases and the bullet selection is meager. I do understand that factor ammo is cheap and that is a highlight for me, but I also want the ability to reload ammunition myself for accuracy. Is this a possibility? Thanks...
Gunnerboy
Member
^ prvi parizan in serbia makes 5.45x39 brass
xxxleafybugxxx
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A few things...
Sam, I was not only talking about Hornady V max, but it was round I discussed. I do believe it would be great for HD.
I think somebody posted this in this thread -maybe not, but if this round takes down deer, then it would be find for HD.
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=83252
Sam, I was not only talking about Hornady V max, but it was round I discussed. I do believe it would be great for HD.
I think somebody posted this in this thread -maybe not, but if this round takes down deer, then it would be find for HD.
http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=109&t=83252
mortablunt
Member
People have actually tested the penetration of different 5.56 loads on people. It turns out that most of the popular loads for HD don't even make minimum penetration requirement. It's doublethinK- the same people who advocate using those low penetration bullets in an AR are the same people who swear that they wouldn't use anything smaller than the 45ACP.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...rnadyRifle.htm
Of the six 5.56 rounds tested, only half of them even reached 12 inches of penetration with the greatest penetration depth being 15 inches. The popular 55 gr Hornady TAP made it not even 9 inches in. It was only with the heavy loadings in either 62 or 75 gr that 12 inches of penetration was reached. The largest permanent cavities were generated a few inches before the the maximum depth was reached.
This link leads to even more information with a large variety and even includes ammo recommendation. I'd seriously consider giving it a good look over no matter what you use for HD or carry.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...index.htm#.223
The reason why at least 12" of penetration is important is because the only hit you make could be at a weird angle or have to go through a limb. IF you shoot a home invader who wields a handgun with one of those varmint loads, if the bullet hits him in the arm, then it's going to fragment and break apart there instead of making a big hole in his chest. The result is a very angry guy who can still kill you. If the penetration had been adequate, then the arm would have been penetrated and the bullet would have made it into his chest cavity, and he'd be down on the floor.
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Mike1234567
member
From all I've read the "cheap" odd mil-surp ammo is always short-lived. It eventually goes away and all we're left with is ammo that's even pricier than average ammo. Personally, I'm sticking with NATO chambered firearms for cost/availability. If/when NATO calibers change then I probably will to.
Mike1234567
member
^^^ What is your point? That .223 Rem or 5.45 Nato is insufficient for HD? I might agree with typical FMJ rounds but not with BT ammo. There is plenty of .223 ammo fully capable of fulfilling Home Defense needs.
allaroundhunter
Member
He is saying that xxxleafybugxxx is off base when he says that just because a round can drop a deer it is capable of HD. A .300 Win Mag can also drop a deer, do you want it to be your primary HD round? (I don't...)
There is more to a HD round than its lethality, and hunting and self defense are hardly comparable.
Sam Cade
Member
Pretty much any bullet intended for .223 reloading can be resized for 5.45 use. They don't need much of a squeeze.
I think most of the 5.45 rifles on the market are nominally 1:8 so most bullet weights should be ok provided the OAL is copacetic with function.
.222 Remington cases can be trimmed and re-sized to make 5.45 but I haven't seen it done.
xxxleafybugxxx
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Here's how I look at it...
The very highly acclaimed .45 acp speer gold dot defense round offers 12.5 in of penetration.
http://www.hickokfamilygenealogy.com/45_ACP_Penetration_Test.html
While the hornady v max 5.45 falls short of this by 2.5 inches, it disperses in the target with more than 2.5 times the energy.
It would be an absolute worst case situation where you shot the target directly in the arm, causing the bullet to hit center mass IE very unlikely. Say you did hit the arm, it would very possibly be rendered useless anyways.
Also, lets not forget that follow up shots with the 5.45 semi auto rifles are very easy, due to low recoil.
Also, lets not forget reports that were given from Afghanistan where this round was considered to be a "poison bullet".
Now, that was just talking about the hornady v max. I'm sure the FMJ has much more penetration for those which it's such a big deal.
I'm not saying this is the best round for HD. All I'm saying is I wouldn't hesitate to use it....
The very highly acclaimed .45 acp speer gold dot defense round offers 12.5 in of penetration.
http://www.hickokfamilygenealogy.com/45_ACP_Penetration_Test.html
While the hornady v max 5.45 falls short of this by 2.5 inches, it disperses in the target with more than 2.5 times the energy.
It would be an absolute worst case situation where you shot the target directly in the arm, causing the bullet to hit center mass IE very unlikely. Say you did hit the arm, it would very possibly be rendered useless anyways.
Also, lets not forget that follow up shots with the 5.45 semi auto rifles are very easy, due to low recoil.
Also, lets not forget reports that were given from Afghanistan where this round was considered to be a "poison bullet".
Now, that was just talking about the hornady v max. I'm sure the FMJ has much more penetration for those which it's such a big deal.
I'm not saying this is the best round for HD. All I'm saying is I wouldn't hesitate to use it....
Cite please.
xxxleafybugxxx
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I wasn't trying to imply the v max was used on that deer. Sorry I didn't differentiate.
I don't know what round was used, all I know is it was 5.45
I don't know what round was used, all I know is it was 5.45
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