5.56 aint weak- .308 just isnt a-

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Call me an anarcho-capitalist, but I like 9mm so I bought a 9mm. I like .30-06, so I'm going to buy a Garand not an AR-15.

Any bullet will drop a badguy, and none will do it in one shot 100% of the time. Shoot what you can, as much as you can, and as best as you can. Keep putting lead down range until the threat is gone.
 
Wllm. Legrand said:
Gentlemen, really...

Too, TOO, many logical fallacies being used in this thread. Do NOT force me to open the books and point them out...though some of you have pointed out the more egregious...(kudos..you know who you are).

The idea that any country's military will make a policy decision strictly upon utilitarian ground is absurd. The .45 auto and its success was a statistical anomoly, thanks to the genius of Browning and his already existant credibility. The .223 adoption, when the 6.5mm round under consideration in pre-WWII was, and is, vastly superior by any quantifiable comparison, was pretty much a political affair after the AF accepted it (which is NO reason to accept any weapon wholesale for real hand-weapon usage). In fairness, the adoption of the M-14 and the .308 was strictly political, as some may recall.

Why the heck don't more of you carry .22lr for you sidearm? Most gunfights occur at stone-throwing distances, right? Or maybe, just MAYBE, it is better to hit with the strongest blow possible. As Machiavelli wrote, "Never deal your opponent a mild blow." In politics, nor force of arms.

The .223 fans seem to rationalize in reverse from a predetermined point of view.

But it's okay. Girly-men simply can't handle a REAL weapon....:evil:
And Bigger is Always Better is not another logical fallacy? :D

It doesn't matter a great deal to me. I have 7.62X51, 5.56, 7.62X39, and 45/70 so I can take my pick. When the buffaloes inside bullet resistant glass carts come to town, I am prepared. :D
 
Thain said:
Call me an anarcho-capitalist, but I like 9mm so I bought a 9mm. I like .30-06, so I'm going to buy a Garand not an AR-15.

Any bullet will drop a badguy, and none will do it in one shot 100% of the time. Shoot what you can, as much as you can, and as best as you can. Keep putting lead down range until the threat is gone.
Stop trying to inject rational discussion into this thread. :D
 
Thanks, to those who cleared up the buffalo poo. Nothing wrong with people sharing there opinions or observations, but to spread untruths about history is just unessacary.

I have to coment on the thought that the US military only selects the best for our troops. That is just illogical (idealogical yes). First of all, what we think is best may not be what the military, thinks is. One of major concerns they have with soldiers is wieght. This was the main reason for switching from 7.62x51mm to 5.56x45mm. Soldiers could theoretically carry much more ammunition for the 5.56. Or they could carry slightly more than they did when they carried the 7.62x51mm and not be overly fatigued by the weight of carrying all of there other equipment.

Also the doctrine of fire changed greatly during from WW2 to Vietnam. For example in WW2 a Rifle sqaud was mostly made up of 10 soldiers carrying the M1 rifle ,1 carrying the BAR automatic rifle (he was called the Automatic rifleman) and one carrying a 1903 springfield with grenade launcher ,for firing rifle grenades for anti tank purposes. Most units did not have a radio to call in fire support, so the rifle was there basic form of defense and offense.

The Automatic rifleman was there to keep suppresive fire on firing positions like bunkers to cover the rifle man so that they could fire and move. The rifleman covered the automatic rifleman. The Soldier armed with the springfield was in case the rifle sqaud was attacked by light armored vehicles like half track, armored cars. Though this formation was effective, over time they found other combinations where more powerful by adding submachine gunners and more powerful anti tank soldiers (bazooka) and other weapon made the rifle sqaud more versatile.

Thier enemies where largely armed with bolt action rifles, submachine guns and machine guns. During ww2 the machine gun and submachine gun made its impact felt in close range combat, such as urban and heavily forested enviroments. This help to develope the assualt rifle, which went on to make an even greater impact on all of the sides that fought in the war.

So the concept that a rifleman should also be able to become an automatic rifleman if need was adopted. America toyed with the idea of making select fire M1's at the end of the war and this project developed into the M14. It was supposed to replace both the M1 and the BAR. It performed as well as the M1 as a Battle rifle. Though it was soon found out to be difficult to cotrol when fired in full auto and it had the same vices as the BAR, 20 round magazine capacity, and it overheated quickly. So it didn't effectively replace the BAR, which was considered obsolete at the time of ww2.

All the while the American Military was still enthralled with the idea of the Assualt rifle/ full-automatic doctrine of fire. Perhaps the Korean war had something to do with this. Though no true assualt rifle was developed during the Korean war, unless you consider the m2 carbine. Soliders liked the M1 alot better even if it had limited capacity. So they where going on what they knew when they developed the M14.
That and they where trying to reduce the varios varietys of weapons systems by Korea we had, the M1 rifle, M1 carbine,M2 carbine, M1 Thompson, M3 Greasegun, BAR, Browning 1919 machinegun, 1911 pistol.

Once Vietnam rolled around most of the previously mentioned arms where still in Inventories and where used in the early war. Then the M14 appeared on the scene, particulary used by the Marine corps. Who favored this firearm greatly due to the old docrine of every marine a rifleman. Though the M14 is an excellent rifle (particulary if used in semi-auto) it wasn't the best for jungle fighting mostly because of its wieght and length.

Even soldiers in the pacific during ww2 where looking for something handier than the M1 in the jungle and the M14 wasn't much different. All of these combined with new Invention by Eugene stoner for a new modern light weight rifles (6.5 lbs) vs. the 9.8lbs M14, not to mention the M16 sucess as an Fully automatic rifle. It filled a niche the M14 could not and overall it was supposed to make it easier for the soldiers to carry all of his ever increasing load through the jungle.

In this time Warfare became more mobile than it was, even in WW2 particulary with the use of the Helicopter. Also we where fighting against an army armed greatly with Semi-automatic and select fire rifles and submachine guns. Not to mentiond of course Politics had a hand to play in all of this and we ended up with the M16 as a combat rifle to the present.

Still today the M16 gets shorter for use in vehicles ( I.E. the M4) as our army again mobilizes inside of armored vehicles for mobility in different terrain, mobility which was impossible in a jungle. Its actually more like ww2, but there are more artillery, more aircraft, more gunships than ever before!

So it all boils down to what your army is doing. That doesn't make the M16 the most deadly rifle ever, or the most long range rifle ever, or the best rifle ever, . But it is relatively light, handy, relatively effective and it has low recoil which makes it easier to train new recruits and make rapid,burst or automatic fire more effective. In a way it harkens back the the original concept of the m1 carbine as a light and easy rifle for support units to use. Instead of having a battle rifle for frontline troops and a carbine for support troops they armed everyone with a carbine. part of this was combat ranges, being shorter, standardization ect.

However it can be noted that Machineguns, M60, M240 and hordes of others are still chambered for 7.62x51mm as they penetrate barriers and destroy harder targets than can the 5.56. Of course there is the SAW though it is trying the fill the role of a sqaud machinegun, the role the BAR could not fill in its day.

Snipers also continue to use the 7.62x51 and even larger calibers for there work. They are selecting individual targets at longer ranges and thus a largers caliber suits there needs better. Now designated marksmen are among the ranks of infantry units and are more like Rifleman of WW2. Or even more similiar to the Russians, which had at least one SVD in every moterized rifle company.

Basickly no one firearm is perfect for everything the U.S. Army selected the M16 because it pretty acurate, easy to use and carry. My opinion is if you are in a modern army with alot artillery, aircraft, armor, support, Machine guns grenade launchers ect. Its a decent weapon.

But if you have no support, such as if you where in a Militia. Or something like that, where you basicly have Rifleman for regular soldiers, and snipers(the best rifleman). Than it makes sense to have the more powerful battle rifle for your soldiers. You can hit target far away, 500+ where you enemy likely can't see (you though they can still kill you with there support) You won't be taking as many shots you would if you had machine guns or assualt rifles, you would want to engage and disapear. In other words you have less tools at your disposal, the rifle has to be more powerful and effective at longer ranges because its doing more of the work that is done by other weapons in a modern military with a more varied arsenal.

That being said,even though the 7.62x51mm only served our country as the standard rifle caliber for less than decade.It has served admirably as the Standard caliber for much of the rest of the world for decades and still serves in machine guns and sniper/Dm rifles and for that matter the m14 is still in active service with the US Navy.

That is why I think the US miltary arms it soldiers the way it does!
WOW that got long! Im sorry about that, I got carried away.

Brother in Arms
 
Brother, Not a bad version of history, just not exactly correct. Toward the end of WWII forward units were starting to see the close air support and arty call in by radio from FACs and forward observers.
The M14 and M16 were both products of a lengthy study done during the early '50s to examine the requirements of infantry small arms and their effectiveness. After reviewing over 3 million reports from actions during WWII they drew the conclusion that rifles of any type are seldom used beyond 300 yards due to difficulty of seeing and hitting a moving or partial target. What they found was that most contacts happened by surprise and involved fairly close range shooting.

The load of the soldier has gotten heavier over the years and any effort to lighten it is important. The number of rounds fired per casualty has gone up since the Zulu wars and more rounds are required to hit a trained soldier than an untrained one. Just because the round is bigger, doesn't mean you will by magic be able to get any more hits in a given scenario. In fact the opposite is true.

Barriers will always present problems to any rifle round, and the most common, a hole dug in the ground or a convenient depression in the terrain will stop any of them. Partisan actions tend to use whatever is available and without resupply you are well advised to use the enemies weapons and ammunition. So you will be stuck with another .22 when your favorite deer rifle runs low on ammo.
 
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I like the big bores. Having said that, while we internet commandos debate this well worn subject, the Good Guys keep killing the bad guys with that inferior little 5.56 just like they've been doing for over 40 years. Our service rifle and cartridge are doing a pretty good job.
JMHO

SKIP
 
kaferhaus,

I think the point of my post might have been lost. I was challenging the idea that "Well, it must be good, otherwise we wouldn't be using it, would we?" is a valid argument or had any sort of logic attached to it in discussing ANY topic.
 
/*Bowfin, Great argument if you ignore time, but none of those things you mentioned survived very long. The 5.56 is going on 40 years*/

Ted Kennedy has been serving in the Senate for 44 years. His longevity doesn't make him effective or desirable, at least for me.

I am bowing out of this debate. The number of minds I have ever seen changed over the internet on a forum of any kind could be counted on one hand, with fingers left over.

If the 5.56mm has satisfied you, then you would be a fool to abandon it until it gives you a reason.

Likewise any other cartridge.

Thanks for your time and your posts, I am eagerly looking forward to the cartridge that will replace the 9mm, the .45 ACP, the 7.62 and the 5.56 and the debates that follow from its introduction.
 
we already have a replacement

It is the mighty 12 gauge. :)

seriously, for everything there is season...

I love all the common calibers. They all have some value and tend to have advantages over the others however slight.

I think people looking for the one size fits all round are looking for the pot of gold in the outhouse.

We should stop wasting money coming up with the perfect Ron Popeal gun. It slices, it dices, it chops, but that's not all, in knits socks.

I don't think the problem is different guns or different calibers. The are lots of both to choose from. The problem is identifying the need soon enough and getting your changes implemented before your enemy does.

We may find our inflexiblilty in our ability to change weapons systems as problematic as those who slowly realised the futility of fixed battlements. Hopefully we can adapt faster every year than more slowly than the year before.

-bevr
 
Cripes, folks. This horse died a long time ago, y'all can stop beating it any time now. Neither round is perfect, and neither is worthless. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, and we all know what they are. So why all the fuss?

If you're in the military, use whatever they issue you. If you're in the private sector, buy whatever you want.

Instead of arguing, mebbe we could all go to the range and practice shooting better.

Armor-clad buffalo?? What's up with that?
 
more is better....bigger is better

I haven't been in any fire fights but I have done a good bit of hunting. I too have seen my sons shoot and kill deer with small claiber rifles .243 and 22-250). They have harvested nine so far and have not lost any. Basically because they have taken all the shots sitting in box blinds overlooking green fields. They have had a good rest and took good lung shots All were trailed 50 to 150 yards.

I shoot a 7 mag. The only ones I have to trail at all are the ones I take lung shots on because I don't want to waste any of the meat. I shot a trophy buck last year and dropped him in his tracks with a high shoulder shot. I definetly did't want that deer to run. He scored in the high 170's.:D

But the shot that proves that sometimes you need more and bigger is this example. Several years ago I was hunting in the Tensas swamp next to an area called the tornado patch. It was doe day and I was looking over a knarly patch of thicket waiting to catch a glimse of a nice buck but able to shoot anything because of it being doe day. Deer kept passing behind me. The woods were more open but the ground was covered in palmettos. I eventually tunrned and faced the area they were crossing. A short time later I heard a palmetto pop to my left. A few seconds later a deer appeared in a opening. I put the crosshairs on his chest and fired. I thought I was lining the vertical crosshair on his leg. It ended up being a pine tree about 4 inches in diameter. I centered the pine tree. A buddy I looked over the scene thinking the deer was long gone. We looked at the pine tree that was blown out the back. We found a palametto fan that had been cut in half. Then we found a little hair and blood. A little farther some more blood and bits of meat. We found the deer about 80 yards away dead. It had six holes in its side and numerous other little dings. One large frag went through both lungs. I seriously don't think that the .243 could have done that and I know the 22-250 would not have.

So it your target is hiding behind stuff go with more and bigger!;)


X
 
In the book "Army at Dawn", by Rick Atkinson, there are comments from soldiers, in North Africa, during WWII. They made some of the following statements:

The M1 Garand would jam a lot if not taken care of and/or cleaned constantly.

They also were amazed at how difficult it was to kill a man and that they didn't just drop when hit.



1. I think you can never have enough terminal performance whether you are shooting a 5.56, .308, 30.06, 155MM, or a laser with an earth shattering boom - you will want more.

2. The good ole days usually weren't.


Sometime, off in the future, the conversation will be.... "Back in the good old days, my great great great grand pappy used a 5.56MM FMJ. And when that copper covered lead slug hit something you and the target new it. Nowadays, these lasers might burn through solid rock but they have no knock down power..... I want something that will put a man flat on his back - even if I hit him in the thumb ".
 
I am not a professional rifle user, but between the politics and "experts" mucking things up, it seems like every time there is indeed a good reason to change the issue weapon, the result swings things too far the other direction. I didn't start shooting til I was in highschool (thanks, Boy Scouts, for a rifle range at summercamp). And my first personally purchased weapon was an M1A standard grade, with cleaning gear and spare parts. I've hunted big game with everything from a .30-30 to a .300 WM. In my relatively short (30 year) experience, I've learned there just isn't any one magic combination of ballistics that works in every situation. Which is what the beancounting bureaucrats seem to gravitate to. Seems like I recall that in the first Gulf War, it wasn't long after boot hit sand that Those Who Knew called to the rear to have M-14s brought up. Not because the 5.56 needed to be replaced, but because they'd found a situation in which the 5.56 was marginal. I wouldn't want to go back to six or seven different weapons and calibers, but maybe keeping your last reasonable weapon around as a backup is just enough redundancy. Which would be a good reason to tell those '***** in DC to quit melting all that Springfield steel down. First post, nuff said for now. Lucky enough to be able to lay hands on 5.56, '06, 7.62NATO, or 300WM as I see fit, and damned thankful for that. From My Cold Dead Hands.:cool:
 
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