5.56 lessons...do they mean much to a civilian?

[RatDrall]

Most of the fighing in Iraq was close combat inside homes where the short barrels were a huge help. A longer 20" barrel would be in the way.

Walk through your home with your hand stretched out making a fist. Then do the same, with a ruler sticking 5.5" out farther than your fist. This is the same difference in length between an M16 and an M4. It isn't that noticable.

I would argue that the difference between a fixed and collaspable stock would be more noticable clearing a building than a few velocity adding inches of barrel that could mean life or death for both the soldier and the badguy.

 

[Maverick223]

The 5.56 is a souped up 22wmr. Should you have a larger caliber for self defense? I doubt any 5.56 bullet other than a FMJ will penetrate 16" inches of ballistic gelatin. You make your own decision. How much is your life worth?

By that same logic a .300WM is a souped up .30Carbine. There is a great deal of difference between the 5.56/.223Rem. and .22WMR. Velocity has a significant impact on performance, as does bullet weight and projectile design...all of which are markedly in favor of the 5.56NATO. ...and Yes, there are rounds that will penetrate far more than 16in. in calibrated ballistics gelatin (or a warm body for that matter).

 

[X-Rap]

It isn't just about clearing houses and close quarters battle. It is about cramped vehicles as well.
Try your same test sitting in your car or truck and getting out with the rifle ready or making a shot out the window or door while staying seated or shooting along the post.

 

[Roadking Rider]

I have no problem with the 556/223 for civilian use. The Mini 14 I shoot them out of with it's light recoil allows me to put more than one down range very quickly with real world accuracy.

 

[SwissArmyDad]

On defensive caliber choices, I have a few thoughts.

I'm confident with my 9mm. I shoot it far better than .45acp and .40s&w.

Though the internet would have me believe that I'm undergunned, it's absolutely the best choice for me because it's the largest/most effective round I'm able to control and shoot consistantly with. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that I'm able to afford practicing on a regular basis, which is important,IMO.

The same choice led me to the AR platform and the 5.56/.223 round for defensive purposes.

I think those are reasons that should inform your decision, to a greater degree than what the military thinks about the 5.56 round/ AR platform, if you don't mind me saying.

 

[Texan Scott]

Thoughts:

1) Nothing you can buy at your LGS is an 'absolute manstopper'. All branches of US service issue 5.56x45 weapons, but the preferred weapon is not an M-something, it's a GBU-something. We make do with what we have.

2) The M855 is a very small, lightweight, EXTREMELY high velocity round... it dumps an AMAZING amount of energy in the target over a relatively short distance (this is what some people call 'inadequate penetration') and for a 'glorified .22', it is enormously lethal due to the massive cavitation trauma it causes in soft tissue. You have the option of INCREASING the amount of energy dumped (or dumping it in a shorter length of travel) by using softpoints et al for even more catastrophic effect.

3) Why are we debating the relative effectiveness of single rounds? Keep firing! .223, .308, 12ga... nobody stands up to 6 or 8 of any of them.

4) Prepare, practice, spare no expense, waste no opportunity, and pray like hockeysticks that you make it to the end of your days and never need any of it.

 

[JustinJ]

I'm currently buying some extra AR's and I got to wondering if it's appropriate for me to use the military's experience to steer my choice in caliber. The military is limited to using full metal jacket ammo...I am not. And if I'm not...then can I realistically extrapolate the lessons of FMJ to my use of hollow point or soft-point ammo?

No. Rather you do or don't believe the 5.56 is adequate the military experiences have no bearing on the round in HP or SP form.

 

[Art Eatman]

You autopsy a center hit on a coyote and you'll find a handful of mush. Same thing happens in defensive use with a hunting bullet. I really don't worry a lot about most any centerfire rifle's effectiveness.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

It's really quite simple. The caliber used in a fight against other people has almost no relevance. When people debate (and I LOVE debating calibers) the effectiveness of this round vs. that round, it's all purely theoretical. .22LRs kill people all the time. .380s kill people all the time. .25acp, .32acp, 9x18, and .38 special all kill people all the time. Surely these don't guarantee death, but consider the fact that even the weakest of serious rifle rounds quadruples these in effectiveness. I don't care if it's a .223, a 7.62x39, a .30-30, a .270, or a .338 Lapua. They WILL stop a human being. Even if not hit in the vitals, they're all 95%+ likely to stop a human being. The differences are theoretical. Yes, the differences are probably important enough to merit appropriate discussion and debate; but that doesn't change the fact that they will all work. Training, shot placement, and the good ole' will and determination to win are far greater factors, rendering caliber practically irrelevant.

 

[proven]

The 5.56 is a souped up 22wmr.

one of the morerididculous statements i've read on this forum.

 

[mastiffhound]

I would say we are better off than the boys in the sandbox. They get one kind of cartridge(excluding special units) and get to hope it puts down their foes. As civilians we have any grain we want to buy from 45 to 90 maybe higher, I can't remember! We have open tip match, polymer tips, hollow points, soft points, sledge hammers, varmaggedons, and any other wild or weird name ammo manufacturers can come up with. Most of what you have available to you is better than anything available from our armed forces. We can get bullets that are specifically designed to kill four legged and two legged animals alike. I feel perfectly happy with the .223 cartridge and follow up shots are a breeze too. Here is a video on the 55 grain xm193 fmj.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k&list=FLB5_qLsJrU_zOWdTR3ch8IQ&index=28&feature=plpp_video

Definately not something I want to get shot with.

 

[gspn]

Let me update this conversation with some of the comments I've heard regarding the 5.56...I'm not talking about things I've heard on the internet. I'm talking about first hand accounts from well known military veterans...for example...Chris Kyle...former Navy SEAL sniper with more than 150 confirmed kills on his record.

Kyle apparently has a good deal more than 150...but those are the "confirmed" kills. He has killed people for a living with many types of weapons.

On the 5.56

He mentions in his book "American Sniper" that "the 5.56 is not the preferred bullet to shoot someone with. It can take a few shots to put someone down, especially the drugged up crazies we were dealing with in Iraq, unless you hit them in the head."

On the 7.62

"Those had more stopping power than the 5.56 NATO rounds. I could shoot a guy once and put him down."

On the .300 Win Mag

"It's in another class entirely." and "performance allows for superb accuracy as well as stopping power."

He states that most of his sniper shots are taken center mass. These are his real world results from shooting terrorists, center-mass, with those calibers.
Here is a guy who is a trained sniper...and a damned good one...and he is plainly stating that shot placement is not all that counts...caliber does too.

This is just one of many accounts I've read that got me to thinking about this as I pondered whether I'd buy 5.56 or .308 in my next AR. Ultimately I'll just buy some of each...but I wanted to get everyones thoughts on the FMJ vs hollow point issue.

**update - some good points were made below so i thought I'd clarify a point...his experience with those rounds ranged from house-to-house and room clearing, to patrolling and ambushes, to sniping...he did a lot of stuff.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

Here is a guy who is a trained sniper...and a damned good one...and he is plainly stating that shot placement is not all that counts...caliber does too.

Well, my first rebuttal has to do with the "drugged up Iraqis." I'm not sure what this means since I've never been there. What were they on, and why were they on it?

Secondly, the .223 clearly loses energy faster than the .308, and LOOOOONG before the .300 Mag. Assuming that the "sniper" label infers 300+ yard shots, then this is where the caliber will obviously make a difference. As far as the battlefield and home defense are concerned, caliber is far less an issue.

The .308 carries as much energy around 400yards as the .223 does at the muzzle. At 400 yards, the .223 has energy comparable to the .38 special revolver cartridge. Obviously, for a sniper, caliber does matter.

 

[X-Rap]

Well put, what works best for the sniper might not be best for the grunt. I can't say conclusively but feel comfortable in saying that our men don't loose many fights because they are under armed or equipped. The IED has been the most devastating weapon used against us and no gun holds up against those.
Having heard a few first hand accounts, the 5.56 holds up pretty well at 400 and under and shines in its compact form (the M4) in close quarters and deploying from vehicles.
In a perfect world they would have MP5's for clearing houses and some type of 7.62 for open field battle but that still leaves a lot of holes to fill that the 5.56/M4 seems to do well.
As for my own non combat use, I will say that I have AR's in multiple configurations from 14.5" to 20" and a couple 308 semi autos G3 and M1A1 SS and neither of the 308's are near as "usable" in tight quarters or when I want quick target acquisition nor are they near as comfortable to carry for any amount of time, if I were to pick a 308 to compare to the usability of the M4orgery it would be a 760 rem carbine but then you take away much in capacity and cycle time.
To me personally even the 1.5" length of the 14.5-16 is noticeable, especially in a vehichle so I really wouldn't want to be saddled with a longer barrel unless I was in a more static position like that of a typical sniper.
I'm sure that there are intermediate cartridges available but in todays world when we are soon facing huge defense cuts and have a 3 in 4 combat disability rate I don't think it would be prudent to throw out a couple million barrels and 10 times that many magazines for a few more ft. lbs. of energy.
For my use 55gr sp makes up most of my loads with some hp & bal. tips for special occasions any 3 of those has performed very well.

 

[JustinJ]

I can't say conclusively but feel comfortable in saying that our men don't loose many fights because they are under armed or equipped. The IED has been the most devastating weapon used against us and no gun holds up against those.

I'm no expert but from what i've read and heard our artillery and air power are usually much more important to winning fights than the 5.56. No guns hold up to those either.

 

[X-Rap]

I'm no expert but from what i've read and heard our artillery and air power are usually much more important to winning fights than the 5.56. No guns hold up to those either.

Yes you are correct but history tells us that there has to be boots on the ground and they need to have effective weapons. I'm sure that those who tried to stand their ground against our men would agree that we have fairly effective personal weapons in addition to our awesome air and artillery power.

 

[gspn]

Well, my first rebuttal has to do with the "drugged up Iraqis." I'm not sure what this means since I've never been there. What were they on, and why were they on it?

Secondly, the .223 clearly loses energy faster than the .308, and LOOOOONG before the .300 Mag. Assuming that the "sniper" label infers 300+ yard shots, then this is where the caliber will obviously make a difference. As far as the battlefield and home defense are concerned, caliber is far less an issue.

The .308 carries as much energy around 400yards as the .223 does at the muzzle. At 400 yards, the .223 has energy comparable to the .38 special revolver cartridge. Obviously, for a sniper, caliber does matter.

One of the interesting things about his experience is that it ranged from long range sniper work down to house-to-house street fighting and room clearing. His experience spans the entire gammut. That's why I found his thoughts to be so interesting...and he's just one example...you can find others with similar experience.

 

[X-Rap]

It's been a while since I read the book but if i recall he spent a lot of time attached to various Marine and Army units who in many cases did the actual entry and clearing operations. I think he no doubt played a role but he wasn't the first man in. I think his job was over watch of these operations then move into position and the Army/Marines would set up perimeter for him to work. Point is he didn't do much clearing with his scoped bolt guns and if you asked him what his choice would be in that application it might be a 5.56.

 

[68wj]

... and if you asked him what his choice would be in that application it might be a 5.56.

And might not. After speaking with someone who was in the Mogadishu op that became Blackhawk Down, his choice was most certainly not 5.56.

 

[MK11]

"Point is he didn't do much clearing with his scoped bolt guns and if you asked him what his choice would be in that application it might be a 5.56."

There is actually a passage in the book where he does an entry and confronts a room full of Caucasian jihadists wearing old U.S. military uniforms. After a moment's hesitation to register what he's seeing, the 5.56 seemed to work pretty well for him.

 

[X-Rap]

Well thankfully we do have a choice and in my favorite configuration and load I don't feel compromised. The military has a whole different batch of fish to fry and finding the perfect combination of weapon, load, sight obviously gets more difficult the more you ask it to do.
Even in your situation the man didn't care for the round, I wonder what he thought of the delivery system although it has changed quite a bit even from that time.
I guess I contend that getting our 7.62 Nato into a package that is as light and ergonomic as the present M4 and issuing to everyone would costing several times what any perceived benefit might be even if there were such a replacement available. Then take into account what will probably be a 10 rd reduction in capacity plus 80-100 in what is carried and diminished ballistics in a shorter barrel I just don't see that they would do any better.

 

[Infidel4life11]

shot placement is everything. Also match grade ammo does wonders. To be perfectly honest with you the M855 and M193 have never let me down.

 

[justice06rr]

Back to the OP's question, IMHO the 5.56/.223 should be more than sufficient for HD and small-game/varmint hunting. I assume you are not fighting an army or hunting a bear...

The beauty of the AR is that you have plenty of choices in caliber and configuration depending on your application. 5.56 should surely suffice for HD, but they do have other calibers like 7.62x39, 300Blackout, 6.5G, 6.8SPC, etc.

 

[gspn]

Back to the OP's question, IMHO the 5.56/.223 should be more than sufficient for HD and small-game/varmint hunting. I assume you are not fighting an army or hunting a bear...

The beauty of the AR is that you have plenty of choices in caliber and configuration depending on your application. 5.56 should surely suffice for HD, but they do have other calibers like 7.62x39, 300Blackout, 6.5G, 6.8SPC, etc.

Thanks. Thats kind of what I was thinking...just wanted to bounce the idea off some people.

 

[G.barnes]

one of the big things to consider as a civilian and not military are the different liabilties we have. when they're clearing houses in iraq they don't really worry if their bullets might go through a wall and hit their kids on the other side or a neighbor next door. if a bullet over penetrates for them it's more of an oops were so sorry here it's a prison sentence. if your worried about close stopping power look at a .300 blk. it's a short range heavy knockdown round.