5.56mm Stopping power

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The problem is that most people don't realize that any military rifle is a compromise. The soldier wants a short, light rifle with a huge magazine, total reliability, perfect accturacy, 100% lethality and the ability to shoot as far as he can see.

A 308 weapon means more range and potentially more killiung power, at the cost of weight and controllability. A 5.56 sacrifices range for weight and controllability. Which one is right?

If you look at actual combat analysis, particularly Hitchman's 'Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon', based on the study of 2 million casualty reports, as well as extensive data from WWII and Korea, it turns out that virtually everything we think we know about infantry rifle combat is wrong.

90% of all infantry fire occurs at 300 yards or less, 70% at less than 100 yards. The effectiveness of infantry fire at 500 yards is virtually zero. This has nothing to do with the weapon or the shooting ability of the soldier. At these ranges the use of camouflage and intervening terrain make it extremely difficult for the soldier to see the enemy. a soldier can't shoot what he can't see.

Finally, analysis of enemy caualties in Vietnam showed that the 5.56x45mm was 11% more lethal than the 7.,62x51mm. This has everything to do with bullet construction and nothing to do with energy. Both the M80 ball round and even the M43 7.62x39 bullet tend to pass through the target doing less injury than the M193 5.56x45, which has a tebndency to fracture into submissiles and not exit.

Obviously, there have been changes in ammunition since then, and there have been justifiable criticisms of the M4 paired with the M855 round leading to reduced effective range due to the loss of velocity of the round. 5.56x45 needs about 2600 fps velocity to reliably fragment.

The spec for M855 is 3000 fps from a 20 inch bbl, which is more like 2770 for a 14.5 inch M4 barrel, which means that within 50 yards, the round is already under the magic 2600 fps. The M193 is still above fragmentation velocity from an M4 out at 150 yards. Fired from a 20 inch M16, the M193 will still be above fragmentation velocity out to over 225 yards.

If you consider that the average range for rifle combat is 75 yards, it all makes sense.

We could adopt an intermediate round, yet again trading something for something else. There's no guarantee that the ball ammunition used with 6.5 or 6.8 would be any more effective than the bullet currently in service.

Finally, in the grand sheme of things, infantry rifles have very little impact on the battle. They matter a lot to the infantryman, but rarely have any impact on the outcome of wars. All the serious killing is done by other weapons.
 
I think we should get rid of the 5.56mm/M16 (at least in its current form).
Why?
Not deflecting issues.
Not power issues.
The 5.56x45mm as we see it today is a very narrow cartridge. It's not a good cartridge for DMR work, and it's not an ideal cartridge for SAWs, either.
I think we can keep a 5.56mm bore, but increase the weight of the projectile. A lot. I don't think we should use any less of a bullet than a 90-grainer for a main battle/assault rifle. I don't think that the cartridge should go any less than 2800 f/s, either. I also don't like FMJ ammunition, I think we should go to "frangible" ammo (to appease the Hague Convention). Do something like cut ridges or crosses in the tips of the bullet to promote fragmentation.
I'd really like to see a 6.5mm, 123-grain round at 2800 f/s (out of a 20-inch barrel), which is something the 6.5 Grendel really can't do. Don't get me wrong, I think the 6.5 Grendel is a swell round. A little ugly in my opinion (it's the sharp shoulder and lack of body taper, I think), but that's not pertinent.
I've said this before (just see my thread, The Ultimate Combat Round, lots of cool content from other people in there), but I think a weight-to-energy ratio is extremely important for a combat round. Having the most efficient round for the weight is a really good thing.
Oh, and for rounds under 1500 ft-lbs, I'd go with a two-round burst (almost) always.
-Nolo out (for now)
Oh, and +1 to GunTech, he's a friggin' genius. I've learned a lot from him.
 
I think we should get rid of the 5.56mm/M16 (at least in its current form).
Why?
Not deflecting issues.
Not power issues.
The 5.56x45mm as we see it today is a very narrow cartridge. It's not a good cartridge for DMR work, and it's not an ideal cartridge for SAWs, either.
I think we can keep a 5.56mm bore, but increase the weight of the projectile. A lot. I don't think we should use any less of a bullet than a 90-grainer for a main battle/assault rifle. I don't think that the cartridge should go any less than 2800 f/s, either. I also don't like FMJ ammunition, I think we should go to "frangible" ammo (to appease the Hague Convention). Do something like cut ridges or crosses in the tips of the bullet to promote fragmentation.
I'd really like to see a 6.5mm, 123-grain round at 2800 f/s (out of a 20-inch barrel), which is something the 6.5 Grendel really can't do. Don't get me wrong, I think the 6.5 Grendel is a swell round. A little ugly in my opinion (it's the sharp shoulder and lack of body taper, I think), but that's not pertinent.
I've said this before (just see my thread, The Ultimate Combat Round, lots of cool content from other people in there), but I think a weight-to-energy ratio is extremely important for a combat round. Having the most efficient round for the weight is a really good thing.
Oh, and for rounds under 1500 ft-lbs, I'd go with a two-round burst (almost) always.

Is there a point here? What does the width of the 5.56mm round have to do with it's effectiveness as a DMR or LMG round? Is the some indication that a 90 grain .224" fangible bullet would be more effective than a 62 grainer that yaws and fragments? What would be the supposed advantage of a 123 grain .264" slug at lower velocities than either the 62 gr. 5.56mm or 7.62mm 147 grainer? What is the problem with the straighter case walls and sharp shoulder of the 6.5 Grendal (a design which has proven most efficient). What exactly is the formula (or application) of weight to energy ratio? Why is 1,500 ft/lbs the magic number for burst fire? (understanding, of course, that terminal energy is only part of the equation and does not make a more effective round in and of itself).

I mean, coming from the point of view of a lifelong hunter who has experimented with cartridges and bullest of all types and velocities ranging from the .22 Hornet to the .50 BMG. I've watched bull elk go down from a 100 grain .243 slug, and I've watched them run away after being hammered by a 270 grain pill from a .375 H&H. There is no magic bullet or cartridge. shot placement is still critical, and more bullets on target means better odds of scoring a good hit. THis is where the current 5.56mm and M16/M4 platform excel.

I'm not trying to flame, just really curious the logic behind these suggestions.
 
It's my understanding that the effectiveness of the 5.56 in military situations depends, to a large degree, on the bullet's tumbling and fragmentation after impact. If it doesn't do this, the stopping power is compromised . . . and this may be the case with the 62 gr. round fired out of M4s.

My limited experience with the effectiveness of the 5.56 does not involve shooting bad guys, but varmints - things like woodchucks & such. For this, I found the FMJ ammo produced less than stellar results.

Switching to a softpoint made an immense difference.

For personal defense, I have no problem with using the 5.56 and appropriate softpoint ammo . . . or, if your situation demands, perhaps alternating softpoints and green tip penetrators. But I would not be happy having to rely exclusively on military issue FMJ rounds in the 5.56 if my life depended on it.
 
Nolo said;
I also don't like FMJ ammunition, I think we should go to "frangible" ammo (to appease the Hague Convention). Do something like cut ridges or crosses in the tips of the bullet to promote fragmentation.

The ammunition you just suggested would be banned under the Hague Conventions.

Jeff
 
What does the width of the 5.56mm round have to do with it's effectiveness as a DMR or LMG round?
Ah, sorry, you misread that. I meant "narrow" as in "not capable of many things" or "specialized" not "lacking in width".
:D

Is the some indication that a 90 grain .224" fangible bullet would be more effective than a 62 grainer that yaws and fragments?
The 90 grainer would fragment, just like the 62-grainer. Except there'd be more mass there to disintegrate (producing more fragments). This does rely quite a bit on bullet design. Plus, your have a really great ballistic coefficient there, making your round a better long-range performer (great for DMRs and SAWs).

What would be the supposed advantage of a 123 grain .264" slug at lower velocities than either the 62 gr. 5.56mm or 7.62mm 147 grainer?
It's not at lower velocities than the 7.62x51mm. It's at the same velocity (2800 f/s). The advantage is long range performance and a less "flimsy" bullet. But I'm not sure that "flimsiness" is a true problem.

What is the problem with the straighter case walls and sharp shoulder of the 6.5 Grendal (a design which has proven most efficient).
Nothing. It's an aesthetic thing that has no pertinence to this discussion at all. The only thing it might have anything to do with is extraction. I like well tapered cases.

What exactly is the formula (or application) of weight to energy ratio?
This is something that (as far as I know) I came up with. There are two separate equations:
To find the Total Magazine Energy (how much muzzle energy is in a given weapon's magazine):
Muzzle Energy x Magazine Size = Total Magazine Energy
This helps explain why the M14 is often liked over the M16. The M14 has more energy contained in each of it's magazines (50000 ft-lbs compared to 39000 lbs).
Then you have the Energy Per Pound (EPP or E/P):
Total Magazine Energy / (Magazine Size x weight of a single cartridge) = Energy Per Pound
Interestingly, the M16 has a higher EPP rating than the M14 (52000 ft-lbs/lb versus 50000 ft-lb/lb).
Or, if you just want Energy Per Pound, you do this:
Muzzle Energy / weight of a single cartridge = EPP
Here's the comparisons between some common cartridges:

.30-06
-Muzzle Velocity: 2800 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 165 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 2800 ft-lbs
-EPP: 47000 ft-lbs/lb

7.62x51 NATO
-Muzzle Velocity: 2800 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 147 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 2500 ft-lbs
-EPP: 50000 ft-lbs/lb

7.62x39
-Muzzle Velocity: 2300 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 123 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1500 ft-lbs
-EPP: 45000 ft-lbs/lb

5.56x45 NATO
-Muzzle Velocity: 3100 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 62 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1300 ft-lbs
-EPP: 52000 ft-lbs/lb

5.45x39
-Muzzle Velocity: 2950 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 50 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1000 ft-lbs
-EPP: 40000 ft-lbs/lb

5.7x28 FN
-Muzzle Velocity: 2350 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 32 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 390 ft-lbs
-EPP: 22000

6.5 Grendel
-Muzzle Velocity: 2600 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 123 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1900 ft-lbs
-EPP: 59000 ft-lbs/lb

6.8 Remington SPC
-Muzzle Velocity: 2625 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 115 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1800 ft-lbs
-EPP: 55000 ft-lbs/lb

These are some of mine, see the Ultimate Combat Round thread (note that these all use an advanced powder from Knox engineering company that greatly reduces their weight. Several THRers have expressed doubt over the powder, so don't freak out over these. Also, expect a lower EPP, just to be safe. I would encourage you, however to consider that powder advances are seen periodically, so I don't think these are out of the question):

5.56mmFirebrandDelta.jpg
5.56mm Firebrand Delta
-Muzzle Velocity: 3000 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 90 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 1800 ft-lbs
-EPP: 72000 ft-lbs/lb

5.56mmFirebrandEpsilon.jpg
5.56mm Firebrand Epsilon
-Muzzle Velocity: 3550 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 90 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 2500 ft-lbs
-EPP: 92000 ft-lbs/lb

6mmFirebrandGamma.jpg
6mm Firebrand Gamma
-Muzzle Velocity: 2900 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 110 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 2050 ft-lbs
-EPP: 80000

6.5x47FirebrandshadedSmall.jpg
6.5mm Firebrand Delta
-Muzzle Velocity: 2800 ft/s
-Bullet Weight: 123 gr.
-Muzzle Energy: 2100 ft-lbs
-EPP: 63000 ft-lbs/lb

Why is 1,500 ft/lbs the magic number for burst fire? (understanding, of course, that terminal energy is only part of the equation and does not make a more effective round in and of itself).
It's not. I looked at all the calibers out there for assault rifles, and it seems to me that (2-round) burst fire is best used in weapons that generate 1500 ft-lbs energy or less. This is both for recoil and stopping power reasons. Are there exceptions to this? Absolutely. For what I'm doing, however, it is quite relevant. The "ceiling" could also be 1800 ft-lbs just as easily. I realize that muzzle energy is only part of the equation. There are lots of other important areas of consideration. Why do I use muzzle energy? Because I've already settled on a bullet design, and I'm going for high-velocity fragmentation anyway (as it greatly improves EPPs and long-distance shooting). So it matters more to me than normal.

I mean, coming from the point of view of a lifelong hunter who has experimented with cartridges and bullest of all types and velocities ranging from the .22 Hornet to the .50 BMG. I've watched bull elk go down from a 100 grain .243 slug, and I've watched them run away after being hammered by a 270 grain pill from a .375 H&H. There is no magic bullet or cartridge. shot placement is still critical, and more bullets on target means better odds of scoring a good hit. THis is where the current 5.56mm and M16/M4 platform excel.
You are right. Of all the rounds (save the Grendel and SPC) that I've measured, the 5.56 had the highest EPP. Shot placement is very difficult in battle. So being able to carry more ammo for less weight is critical. Performance is as well, but I want to start with a cartridge with a high EPP, then make it's ballistic performance better. This has worked out better than I'd hoped, because high-velocity rounds (which, as far as I've seen, have the best terminal effects when frangible) have really high EPPs.
 
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While I'll debate all day about the M-16 if really prodded, I don't have a major problem with the firearm within its limitations.

What I find absolutely FUBAR is that in this day and age, we still issue a soldier A weapon. Singular. In ANY combat environment, that's the main tool he has to do his job with.

As much as we spend on the military and still fail to get our soldiers the very best body armor available (or sometimes any), I suppose it shouldn't be surprising. But, truly... Why would you send soldiers into an environment with a weapon unsuited to it? A high-velocity .22 firing in three-round bursts is a less than perfect weapon in an urban environment. Yet I've heard no real suggestion from any corners of tailoring a weapon specifically for the environment in which we now do most of our fighting.

It can't be for a lack of resources. We're a wealthy nation with a huge military budget.

I can't imagine it's for the sake of a corrupt contract system. Diversifying our small arms would mean MORE contracts given out.

And it can't be for lack of imagination. At least our troops are smart enough to pick up and evaluate other (mostly Soviet-designed) arms for jobs where the AR doesn't measure up. It's certainly underestimating them to think they can't learn to fire and maintain more than one weapon system.

I don't understand how the idea of a few SMGs among the riflemen became such an obscene suggestion within the Pentagon.
 
Actually, I really agree with broadsideofabarn. But I think I know the reason. Exactly the situation he's talking about played itself out in WWII. It was a logistical nightmare. We were stretched to the limits. I don't think we want to go back to that, and I can't blame us.
 
There's nothing an SMG can do that an assault rifle can't do better, other than be small.

Is the M16 a compromise rifle? Certainly, just like ever other military weapon. Could we build something better? Certainly. But the M16 is 'good enough'. As the Russians say 'perfect is the enemy of good enough'.
The fact of the matter is that small arms have a negligable impact on war. Specifically, infantry rifles account for less than 1% of all enemy casualties (this is typically higher in MOUT operations and counter insurgency). Machineguns, artillery and airpower are orders of magnitude above the rifle in terms of killing numbers. Also, no career is made managing a small arms program. The only people who really care about the rifle are pro-gun kooks and infantrymen, and i include myself in both categories.

Further, any sunstantive change in small arms systems at this point is unlikely to have any measurable impact on combat operations. That was clearly show by the ACR trial in the 1980s, where no weapon tested showed any significant improvement over the current rifle.
 
Well, I guess I'll step in and go against the grain by saying that I was not at all impressed with the M16 while I was in the Army and it has nothing to do with the 5.56 vs 7.62 debate. I just felt that it was not a reliable weapon. In the fall of 76' I was at Ft. Dix NJ. for basic training. On the day that we qualified the weather was very nice. Very few of the soldiers qualifying had any problems with their weapons. Later during night qualifying all hell broke loose. It started raining during supper and continued to rain thru the night. My conservative guess is that 40% of us (including me) had problems severe enough to require the need of an armorer. I got exactly three shots off before my rifle was unusable. It got to the point where the drill sargeants were telling those of us with malfuntioning rifles to trade with those whose rifles were working just so we could get the hell out of there. That was pretty much my experience thru my entire three years I served. Weather fine? Weapons worked. Weather crappy? Forget about it.
 
+1 what RockyMtnTactical and GunTech have said.

5.56mm gets the job done, and while people can argue that it should do this better or do less of that or whatever, the basic reality is that while we're shooting brass cased ammunition, there really is not a "better" just a different shuffling of pluses and minuses.

Since 5.56mm works, the cost of shuffling those pluses and minuses is a pretty hard sell. And it should be. I know we have a tendency to think the government just throws money at problems without any consideration to actual cost, but the reality does not match that mythology, at least not down at the user level. If we were to switch to some other caliber that provided a different set of strengths and weaknesses, that would mean that less money got spent on training, or other equipment for the troops, etc.
 
I was a 20 year old infantryman in Nam 68-69. My 16 worked quite well and am writing this because of its effectiveness.I cleaned my 16 as anyone in combat should. Many belittle it based on inaccuate hearsay or some like aruments to get people upset.
Byron D Co,3/8th Infantry, 4th Infantry Division
 
ID Shooting, I was a tanker in the same timeframe, in Germany, where I was asst armorer. We had M-3s in the MTOE and in the arms room, listed to be issued to crewmen of the recovery vehicle. They never touched them, but with the last of the .45 ammo we got before we switched out our 1911s to M-9s, I sure did. :) My training and experience never saw tankers using anything but standard rifles and sidearms.

When I was a kid, I had this perception that everything the military uses is the best anyone can ever use for any OTHER application, and that if it hasn't been U.S. issue at one time or another, it is flawed. This was before I came to understand that every piece of equipment the military uses is made by the cheapest bidder.

I still carry and use the M-16/M-4 as a duty weapon. I feel fine with it in a military application, BECAUSE when I qualify I shoot semi-auto, but if I ever use it to defend my life, I will be hitting that target with as many rounds as possible. I tell my soldiers, get used to the idea that if it's ever for real, flip that switch right past semi. (It's WAR, and overwhelming force is appropriate, where concerns of overpenetration and escalation of force are at best secondary concerns.)

For my own HD weapon, I use an M-1 carbine and a Remington 870. I know many people are using ARs for HD these days, and when some of them ask me what I think, I tell them, "use what you have got, but get some Hornady TAP ammo." I know, I know, gel tests, stats, theories, blah blah blah, but I have enough personal experience with the round to know that If I am about to hose a bad guy late at night, and I have a less than ideal backstop, I don't want to be hoping that this round which I KNOW is good at penetrating armor won't shred what is behind it. We have done this one to death, whether or not 5.56 is appropriate for HD, I still haven't heard any good reason it's better than my .30 carbine.
 
To: JShirley

“Well, M.T., I don't know you, but I have issues with some things you've said.

Who were you assigned to? I'm a little surprised that you claim to have been a Recon Marine, and then immediately speak about SF. So, were you a Recon Marine, or SF?”

So just WHO told you that Recon Marines were not Special Forces?!? Just a short note Navy Seals, Air Force Commandos Pathfinders and Para Rescue, and Coast Guard Beach Jumpers are also considered Special Forces.

I didn’t claim to be a Recon Marine - I was a Recon Marine. R.I.P. schooled in Da Nang and Quang Tri, SCUBA schooled also at Da Nang and later Pearl Harbor, Jump schooled in Soc Trang and Later Ft. Benning, Insurgency/Counter Insurgency training in Lang Vei and later Panama City.

My guess is that if you followed that, you’d realize there aren’t enough resources in the U.S. Armed Forces to dedicate all facets of Special Forces training unique to each service. Marines are especially thin budgeted and we even had to pay our living expenses out of pocket to attend many schools that squeeked us in, often using basket leave to attend.

Similarly we networked with each other and when Colonel Simmons needed more warriors than the U.S. Army would give him calls went out to SEALS and Recon Marines and we answered! (Officers had no clue how to use Recon Marines (or sometimes even Special Forces for that matter,) they simply used them as point infantry. So within our own ranks we took care of each other.

I served with 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion Company A in both Quang Tri (1 Corps) and then as training NCO in Kaneohe Bay Hawaii and finally MCRD San Diego with a final grade at date of separation of E-7 Gunnery Sergeant (meritorious from Drill Instructor School.)

Being as civil as I can here, but don’t question my service again…

Funny when you chop down the AR-15 you don’t even have the minimum velocity delivery that most consider a touting point of the cartridge in the first place! When they tried to issue us XM177A1E2(s) we generally laughed at them and told them where to go. However the younger folk carried them as a form of elite badge. That elite troops now carry M4(s) I can only add the comment they have a similar agenda, or are carrying it in preference to a 9mm MP5 or are duty bound not to spit on the issue authorities spit shines!

I said Infantry will use what they are issued. The last Combat Marines I talked to said given a choice they’d choose the M240b (MAG58) or M60E4-M43 Mod-O and when stuck with an M-16A1 without the 3 shot burst device they shut their mouths did good work. (If you issue Fine Infantry a Ford Edsel and command them to the front, have no doubt they’d figure a way to deploy it, that is not the issue though is it!)

JSL
 
Funny when you chop down the AR-15 you don’t even have the minimum velocity delivery that most consider a touting point of the cartridge in the first place! When they tried to issue us XM177A1E2(s) we generally laughed at them and told them where to go. However the younger folk carried them as a form of elite badge. That elite troops now carry M4(s) I can only add the comment they have a similar agenda, or are carrying it in preference to a 9mm MP5 or are duty bound not to spit on the issue authorities spit shines!

May be a generational thing if you've been there and done that back in the Vietnam era, but these days the M4 is the weapon of choice, preferably with a barrel in the 10-12" range. They don't carry it because it's cool, and they don't carry it because the powers that be tell them to -- they carry it because it works and its numerous strengths more than adequately compensate for any shortcomings it has. Especially in the hands of a skilled shooter trained in combat marksmanship and CQC techniques.
 
Moderator hat on....

ModernTechnician,
I'm not JShirley, but what you have posted doesn't jive up with my personal experience nor the experience of other veterans on the board. I have direct knowledge of when and where JShirley served.

No one who has challenged anything you said is posting under a screen name. I suggest that you email or PM me your credentials so that your claims can be verified. Do this before you post here again.

Anyone can make up a screen name and claim any kind of expert knowledge they want. That is the nature of the internet. THR is one of those places where one doesn't claim experience they don't have.

Jeff
 
The .300 Magnum was made even more difficult to field as a Sniper Weapon
Now I"m just a teenager, but I would expect a Marine to know that (correct me if I'm wrong) the only military sniper rifle in .300Win was the Walther WA200 and that gun was never fielded by any military force and less than 1000 were made.
 
Now I"m just a teenager, but I would expect a Marine to know that (correct me if I'm wrong) the only military sniper rifle in .300Win was the Walther WA200 and that gun was never fielded by any military force and less than 1000 were made.

Not true. There are 300 Win Mag bolt guns out there currently in service with a number of units. 7.62x51 remains the workhorse round, however.
 
I agree that a rifle has a minimal impact on operations, barring use of something like a bolt-action or a Chauchat. :D
I would like to say, however, that I think it is worth the effort to reduce the weight of our ammunition, which is what my EPP rating is all about. Get the weight down, maintain the capability, and maybe even make some improvements along the way.
 
I see some people asking for heavier bullets with more energy and mass (e.g., the .308 ), to allow longer range shooting. Is there a reason why you couldn't make a 5.56 cartridge with a metal that is denser than lead, like say tungsten or depleted uranium (or platinum :) ). You could turn a 75 gr 5.56 lead bullet into a 130 gr bullet if you used tungsten instead. (given that tungsten is about 1.7 times denser than lead)

Is the limitation on the amount of powder that fits into the 5.56 case? Or the strength of the receiver on the 5.56 rifle?
 
To: Jeff White

Yes, I knew John Plaster and spent as much time as I could when out of the field (which wasn’t much) at the Rifle Range that Carlos Hathcock and Gunny English put together in Da Nang, his old haunt. (Major McMillan used to let us skip lunch and instead issue us as much .45 hard ball as we could shoot!)

I am surprised to hear that he endorses the CAR-15 especially since we never saw one, must mean the XM177A1E2. That he would endorse it over the AK? We are talking about some one I don’t know at all! (In fact aside from the nasty habit of drawing friendly fire 1st Force Recon and 3rd Recon had such a preference for the systems that many considered it an almost unofficial issue (of AK(s) and RPK(s).) XM177A1E2(s) were not common in our inventories (we were Riflemen.)

Really? In almost 30 years of service with the 16 you didn’t have to clean it insistently to ward off stoppages? Hmmm. (Thank you for your service by the way!!!)

I would argue with you heavily about .30 and .50 cal deflections however. Yes spitzer shaped hi velocity rounds do occasionally get thrown off when they encounter resistance, but surely you have seen the vast majority of rounds from such weapons system dig through that and hit home! Do you really suggest that .30 or .50 caliber can’t hit a jungled or forested enemy?! That is absolutely counter to my experience! And sadly makes you sound untruthful. (Are you willing to say anything to discredit me and promote the pea shooter?)

I have seen M-16(s) break the tops of the handguards and pinch off the gas tube in both war and piece. Yes I know they changed the forend design, too bad they didn’t replace the tube itself with a robust steel one!

Colonel Simmons was also known a Bull, he was as fine an officer as ever existed God Rest His Soul! Yes, his units were charged with the Son Tay mission and training there in, I have no clue where to find documentation on the Parrot Beak missions now days, but if you could find them, you’ll find him and us all. We were told the assaults prevented a repeat (better yet say again,) TET 1968 incursion.

I was an 0311/0331/0351 but cross trained as a 2531, my designated weaponry was an M1911A1 .45 caliber pistol. But I carried an M60 during that time span as they already had Radiomen. The Army saw fit to issue most M16(s) but if you knew Colonel Simmons, you knew his men acquired a rather healthy amount of 12 bore pumps and AK(s) & RPK(s) that the enemy so kindly provided us with!

Really, you maintain a clearance and access even though retired? How did you work that out? Marines have an NCO commission Special Forces have Evals when training is complete. Training NCO’s publish these to D.O.D. (Did you really expect me to keep T #’s?) T.O.E.’s have Evals in both war and peace and MANY were submitted with negatives by myself and others (personal experiences.) We utilized every method we could to a Pentagon that did not care to listen, Formal and Informal. (Special Forces did and do bond tougether and come up with recommendations, we train each other and are faithful to each other!)

I find it incredible that you insist there was no Infantry opposition to the M-16 and 5.56mm at all. In fact I think you are lying here!

Yes, I am aware that we are signatories to the outdated WW1 treaties. That a Modern military would be so foolish to follow and not separate themselves from such a doctrine is both foolish and ludicrous! You apparently never ran into Bee-hive ammunition…

Marines designated one in 4 M-16(s) per fire team were authorized to have full auto capability. During the war most everyone that wanted full auto had it as did most Special Purpose units and I believe all units now days, with the 3 shot burst device that the Marines were allowed to dispose of. You obviously never saw an M-16 firefight Vietnam era, but yes, those that had experience used fire discipline and semi-auto fire.

First, I am not your Brother, now to say that the M-16 didn’t need cleaning makes me sure of it. You are a liar! My men broke down an cleaned the weapon even when it had not been fired AT EVERY OPERTUNITY! Because they knew men that had DIED because their weapon had a stoppage! As a training NCO I was once ordered not to clean the weapon that I was qualifying with by an officer and my rifle score went from 248 to 190 with stoppages beginning on the second day of shooting.

The Naval Weapons Testing and Ordinance Disposal Center did tests and the mean failure rates were so high on the weapon that testing of fouled weapons was discontinued!

IF you are telling me that they now have gone away from ball powders and that systems are better (read newer now) I am please, but never will be convinced! The Marines that came home from Desert Shield/Storm said that they had to make Styrofoam inserts to keep sand out of empty mag’ wells because the slightest amount of it would stop the weapon!

A good friend of mine had an AR-15 and he allowed the carbon to build up until the weapon failed more often than it fired! I told him of our experiences during the war, he cleaned the rifle to the point that he decided it was not the weapon for him. That is civilian experience and it bore out my own.

We are at the point that we can no longer converse, and I will not answer any more of your points, as truth is not something you concern yourself with!
 
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