Rem700SD
Member
IIRC, Constitution had closer to 3 feet of wood as armour. What's the penetration of wood on the .50 at 2000yds?
Dan
Dan
50 cal Machine gun on sloop vs. 38 gun frigate... who would win?
- Thread starter jamz
- Start date
- Status
I think this is the key. During all those "days of maneuvering", the .50 would be chewing up the larger ship (and more importantly its crew) while it was trying to get into position for a cannon shot.
The sloop might not sink the big ship, but it's hard to imagine how a sailing ship could operate while its decks are continually being raked by a .50BMG. I would think that after a relatively short time, the frigate would be trying to get away.
Library Guy
Member
Surprise / Morale
If you don’t mind a new guy putting in his 2¢…
Fine, the frigate has the advantage of speed, firepower, and armor.
But what hasn’t been taken into account is the element of surprise. Is the frigate captain expecting the sloop to be armed with a 20th century heavy machine gun? How will the psychology of the frigate crew be affected by this new and inexplicable weapon?
It’s tough call. I’d put money on a stalemate.
Regards,
LG Roy
If you don’t mind a new guy putting in his 2¢…
Fine, the frigate has the advantage of speed, firepower, and armor.
But what hasn’t been taken into account is the element of surprise. Is the frigate captain expecting the sloop to be armed with a 20th century heavy machine gun? How will the psychology of the frigate crew be affected by this new and inexplicable weapon?
It’s tough call. I’d put money on a stalemate.
Regards,
LG Roy
____hoot____
Member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2006
- Messages
- 92
Range of skipped cannon shot 2900 yards vs. stand off out of range at 3000 yards and pick her to pieces with the .50 ~~~~~~~~~~huuummm, kinda cuttin it close Besides that frigate is going to go straight at that sloop in a fight and minimize exposure and penetration until it runs it down with it's greater speed and gets in close enough for a sure kill broadside. These naval captains were proud pricks and would lose their careers if they ran from a much smaller ship. The only time I would give the edge to the 50 is in flat seas, where it's accurracy could hold an advantage; if the frigate captain were stupid enough to attack it then in daylight instead of "danceing" with them until night fall or heavy weather. If the frigate captain knew what he was faceing, the sloop would lose.
kungfuhippie
Member
Okay, if the ships we're equal in speed the m2 would have an advantage of range. If the frigate persued the sloop and the m2 was rear mounted assuming the frigate didn't get within cannon range the frigate would eventually lose. THe trick is in the armor piercing incendiary rounds. Stick aboud 500 of those in the side of the frigate and it would burn up in no time because you'd be basically sticking hot coals into wood, if they couldn't overpenetrate it wouldn't matter, they'd still burn. Now if there were two sloops or multiple m2's onboard, the sloop would be victorious. Cause were assuming the two captians are equally competant.
BTW an 8mm mauser will reportedly penetrate 30" of oak, a .50 cal AP should do alot more.
BTW an 8mm mauser will reportedly penetrate 30" of oak, a .50 cal AP should do alot more.
If you can't get 2000 yards easy from a sniper in a stable position, I doubt you're gonna get it with a machine gun in a ship. Which means that the M2 is actually close to being outranged here. However, at that range, while getting hit with it may not be nice, most ships would handle the blow. You needed to be close not because the cannon were inaccurate, but becuase like a pisol round, they lose power. You can hit a guy at a hundred rounds with a 1911. Question is, will it put him down? Most of the stuff I've read about old marine warfare says that part of the reason to get close is to make sure you have the punch to actually damage the other ship.
Stainless Chili
Member
The sloop, with the weather-gage, coming from the stern.
Disable the rudder, sails, lines, tackle.
The long cannons were pretty accurate, however ...
I can't see the larger ship lowering her flag.
Disable the rudder, sails, lines, tackle.
The long cannons were pretty accurate, however ...
I can't see the larger ship lowering her flag.
SnWnMe
Member
Doesn't matter if the 50 can outrange the cannons. What matters is will the 50 have enough punch at that extreme range? The answer is no. The sloop has to close to be able to do anything. Close to cannon range where it can't damage the frig fast enough to stop that one broadside that is all the frig needs (and it has two of them).
Jeff Timm
Member
At 1000+ yards from dead astern, fire 50 rounds of mixed tracer, incendiary and Armor piercing Incendiary. Nothing like a little fire in a wooden ship.
Geoff
Who has fired a .50 or two.
Geoff
Who has fired a .50 or two.
CrawdaddyJim
Member
I once shot completely through a 3ft diameter red oak tree with my 30-06 and fmj ball ammo surplus from about 70 yds. I wouldn't be surprised if the 50 cal would punch through 3ft of ship at a much longer range. I am going with the sloop.
oneshooter
Member
As for the fire on a wooden ship. It was standard procedure when the ship was "Beat to Quarters" that the decks be sanded, and hoses from the pumps be set. There were also several barrels of seawater on each deck w/buckets ready. There were nets rigged from the bulwarks to the lower yards and across thw deck. This was to prevent shot down rigging and blocks ( some of them weighed several hundred pounds)from falling on the gun crews. The crew lived with the fear of fire 24-7.
A single shot from a 32 pounder at 2-300 yards will penetrate the sloops hull from one side to the other! Spreading large crew killing splinters, upsetting guns, and generally raising havoc ! The sloops 20 pound carronades will, at the same range, with double charges and extreme luck, dent the hull of a Frigate!
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
A single shot from a 32 pounder at 2-300 yards will penetrate the sloops hull from one side to the other! Spreading large crew killing splinters, upsetting guns, and generally raising havoc ! The sloops 20 pound carronades will, at the same range, with double charges and extreme luck, dent the hull of a Frigate!
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
ilcylic
Member
I love the fact that we're having this discussion.
Shaughn Leayme
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 245
Another advantage of a frigate is mast height, they will see the sloop long before the sloop will detect the frigate and they will investigate, to prevent a surprise by an enemy fleet, since many times a frigate was used as a screening force for the main fleet, given that they were as fast as a sloop, but better armed.
Again, why is anyone thinking that the captain of the frigate , is going to let any ship, sloop or otherwise, sail right up his stern, Frigate captains were usually very experienced, even daring and quite often inspired commanders and a Frigate was what everyone wanted, they ranged ahead of the fleet and were well suited to taking prizes (capturing enemy vessels or merchant men) and unless there was another ship insight, the captain got the majority of the prize money when the ship was bought into the service (a percentage went to the admiral in charge of his squadron) and the crew also got a percentage, you take this personality and a Frigate and you would be very foolish, to assume that he is going to let anyone get in position on him.
The Captain of a sloop is generally a junior officer and it may very well be his first command, it's the perfect platform on which someone can get the grasp of what it takes to command a fighting ship, without risking or impeding the performance of a vastly superior and more efficient fighting platform and being young and relatively inexperienced, he is already behind the curve when it comes to the tricks and deviousness, that a more senior experienced captain will most likely have at his disposal, add to it that his crew will have some experienced sailors, but will most likely comprise of equally fresh crew, ships of the line and frigates, were known to requisition, the more experienced men from lesser ships into thier crew's..
Basically the mast head watch detects the Sloop, the captain or indeed admiral of the squadron, should he be attached to one, will order that they begin to alter course to close and put him in an advantageous position, to first determine the what and the who and to allow him to run down this ship and either put it on the bottom or capture it.
As far as tricks, there were many tricks pulled by both sides in war, thing's like reinforcing a section of the ship and mounting a 24 pounder, removing the gun on the opposite side, to allow room for recoil, or replacing a 9 pounder bow chaser with a set of 12 pounders, even so far as mounting a pair of 24 pounder stern chasers, in place of a couple of carronades and since, it may not be policy or in the original design spec's, it could be an very nasty suprise.
Morale/psychology effect on the crew: A new weapon may indeed have an effect on the frigate crew, but I pose one better what is the effect on the Sloop's crew when this (in the case of the USS Constitution) 2200 ton behemoth with guns run out is headed for them, and every man of thier crew knows even a moment under those gun's is going to spell death (if they are lucky) and destruction and if any had served in a line ship or frigate, they know exactly what is coming, plus with a 50 cal, you won't have the immediate and physical feedback as would be caused by a cannon ball, so this too would have an effect on the crew of the sloop.
It works both ways.
So, if A frigate were to allow a sloop to close on his stern, then I for one would not want to be there, because the captain of that frigate, wants you there and given that he can quickly tack around to bring his gun's to bear and you at a 1000 yards, you turn either direction and he can place his broadside across your length, keep coming and he is sending cannon balls into the bow of your ship, then he tacks again and the other full loaded battery has a go at you.
It is not a static battle and since he knows it is a sloop he is after, the jockeying that would normally happen, with 2 ships of equal fighting ability, would not be present, he knows you are in serious trouble, should he get you into the firing arc of any of his gun's and he is going to come after you with all he has.
Money still on the Frigate
Again, why is anyone thinking that the captain of the frigate , is going to let any ship, sloop or otherwise, sail right up his stern, Frigate captains were usually very experienced, even daring and quite often inspired commanders and a Frigate was what everyone wanted, they ranged ahead of the fleet and were well suited to taking prizes (capturing enemy vessels or merchant men) and unless there was another ship insight, the captain got the majority of the prize money when the ship was bought into the service (a percentage went to the admiral in charge of his squadron) and the crew also got a percentage, you take this personality and a Frigate and you would be very foolish, to assume that he is going to let anyone get in position on him.
The Captain of a sloop is generally a junior officer and it may very well be his first command, it's the perfect platform on which someone can get the grasp of what it takes to command a fighting ship, without risking or impeding the performance of a vastly superior and more efficient fighting platform and being young and relatively inexperienced, he is already behind the curve when it comes to the tricks and deviousness, that a more senior experienced captain will most likely have at his disposal, add to it that his crew will have some experienced sailors, but will most likely comprise of equally fresh crew, ships of the line and frigates, were known to requisition, the more experienced men from lesser ships into thier crew's..
Basically the mast head watch detects the Sloop, the captain or indeed admiral of the squadron, should he be attached to one, will order that they begin to alter course to close and put him in an advantageous position, to first determine the what and the who and to allow him to run down this ship and either put it on the bottom or capture it.
As far as tricks, there were many tricks pulled by both sides in war, thing's like reinforcing a section of the ship and mounting a 24 pounder, removing the gun on the opposite side, to allow room for recoil, or replacing a 9 pounder bow chaser with a set of 12 pounders, even so far as mounting a pair of 24 pounder stern chasers, in place of a couple of carronades and since, it may not be policy or in the original design spec's, it could be an very nasty suprise.
Morale/psychology effect on the crew: A new weapon may indeed have an effect on the frigate crew, but I pose one better what is the effect on the Sloop's crew when this (in the case of the USS Constitution) 2200 ton behemoth with guns run out is headed for them, and every man of thier crew knows even a moment under those gun's is going to spell death (if they are lucky) and destruction and if any had served in a line ship or frigate, they know exactly what is coming, plus with a 50 cal, you won't have the immediate and physical feedback as would be caused by a cannon ball, so this too would have an effect on the crew of the sloop.
It works both ways.
So, if A frigate were to allow a sloop to close on his stern, then I for one would not want to be there, because the captain of that frigate, wants you there and given that he can quickly tack around to bring his gun's to bear and you at a 1000 yards, you turn either direction and he can place his broadside across your length, keep coming and he is sending cannon balls into the bow of your ship, then he tacks again and the other full loaded battery has a go at you.
It is not a static battle and since he knows it is a sloop he is after, the jockeying that would normally happen, with 2 ships of equal fighting ability, would not be present, he knows you are in serious trouble, should he get you into the firing arc of any of his gun's and he is going to come after you with all he has.
Money still on the Frigate
Last edited:
SnWnMe
Member
Yup, stern chase? HAH!! The frig will turn and present that fearsome broadside to disintegrate the sloop's bow (and the 50) in a basic Crossing the T maneuver. After the first one, it will go round and fire the other one while the first battery reloads. Also, have any of you seen the sights on a 50 mounted on a ship? It's just a glorified peep sight. You don't get the fancy dial sight because it is worthless afloat. So you have to walk your splashes. Anyone here wanna try that @ 1000 yards? With the recoil and the primitive sights you won't get any telling hits before the frigate sends you to the bottom.
Geronimo45
Member
I can see it all
The sloop is manned by highly-trained Mall Ninjas with NVGs, and strike at night. Gunkid, the ship's patron sniper, shatters the rudder chain with a lucky shot from his .22LR AR, and the vessels close.
Gecko45 shells the rear of the ship mercilessly with the .50 - then sends Gunkid and the Tactical Team aboard. The Tac Team gets up first, and receive a blast of grapeshot. Gecko's multiple trauma plates protect him from death, but his Special Weapons MP5 clone is no longer functioning. Some of the team is wiped out, and Gunkid decides to join in the fray. He clambers up the rope and fires off a 10-round magazine of .22LR in full auto - suppressed, of course. Two crewmen are taken out, but the cannon is almost loaded. Gunkid drops the rifle and pulls the .22 pistol from SOB... and shoots himself in the posterior. A few crewmen rush at him with cutlasses - and he fends them off for a minute with his AR. The suppressor comes off to the first mate's blade - but just then, Gecko returns, tossing a flash-bang. Wielding twin Glocks with Bar-sto barrels, he blazes away at the stunned throng... and manages to kill the ship's monkey just before achieving slide lock. Gecko and Gunkid go below - where Gecko's Ninja boots will do more good.
Gunkid fashions a silencer for his .22 pistol from a tactical banana and pickle assembly, tightly wrapped with cotton cord. Gecko puts out the lights and waits with NVGs and NEF .300 Magnum single-shot. Gunkid decides to adopt Gecko's Plan A and absorb enemy fire. Gecko seems to have forgotten that Gunkid does not have Second Chance body armor and Level IV trauma plates.
The crew, with pikes, pistols, and muskets, charge the hold. Gunkid double-taps the captain's wig, then performs a tactical reload. Gecko takes out the lead man with the NEF rifle. The G36 selective-fire comes out - complete with tactical rails holding two surefire lights, one visible red laser, one visible green laser (for brighter light), one infrared laser, a foregrip, red-dot sight and Starlight scope, etc. The gun is run dry, taking out the first line.
Gecko takes up the PSG-1 and fires five rounds from the hip, smashing the iron hoop on a barrel of apples.
Gunkid knows that that fate of the world is in his hands, and performs another quickdraw of his .22 pistol - with the same results as previously experienced. He pulls the gun out of his waistband and fires the remainder of the magazine. The first wave is down - but there are many more crewmen. Gecko reloads and waits. Gunkid fills his ten-round magazine with Aguilla .22 subsonic and prepares for the final moments. The captain has decided to up then ante, and has the muzzle of one of the guns pointed at the deck just above our two heroes. A gaping hole is now present. Gecko tosses up a flashbang, setting some of the rigging ablaze. Quick work with water buckets eliminate this problem, and more shots are fired.
Gecko and Gunkid decide to make a last great charge. Gecko mounts a bayonet on his G36.
The outcome of the battle is history. The low-grade Wolf .223 Gecko had smuggled into the country in 'Mortal Kombat' arcades jammed the gun badly, and the Mall Ninja Master pulled his Kahr P-9.
Gunkid went down bravely... well, he wanted to. He shot the captain down and decided to celebrate by spinning the pistol around his finger... and shot himself three times.
Gecko walked on walls and threw flying stars - but found it to be of no avail. He duelled and parried cutlasses with his ASP baton until a lucky shot... accidental shot, really... by Gunkid took him down.
The two were buried at sea, with all Ninja honors. Gunkid was sent down to be with his beloved Assault Wheelbarrow.
Thus the tale ends.
The sloop is manned by highly-trained Mall Ninjas with NVGs, and strike at night. Gunkid, the ship's patron sniper, shatters the rudder chain with a lucky shot from his .22LR AR, and the vessels close.
Gecko45 shells the rear of the ship mercilessly with the .50 - then sends Gunkid and the Tactical Team aboard. The Tac Team gets up first, and receive a blast of grapeshot. Gecko's multiple trauma plates protect him from death, but his Special Weapons MP5 clone is no longer functioning. Some of the team is wiped out, and Gunkid decides to join in the fray. He clambers up the rope and fires off a 10-round magazine of .22LR in full auto - suppressed, of course. Two crewmen are taken out, but the cannon is almost loaded. Gunkid drops the rifle and pulls the .22 pistol from SOB... and shoots himself in the posterior. A few crewmen rush at him with cutlasses - and he fends them off for a minute with his AR. The suppressor comes off to the first mate's blade - but just then, Gecko returns, tossing a flash-bang. Wielding twin Glocks with Bar-sto barrels, he blazes away at the stunned throng... and manages to kill the ship's monkey just before achieving slide lock. Gecko and Gunkid go below - where Gecko's Ninja boots will do more good.
Gunkid fashions a silencer for his .22 pistol from a tactical banana and pickle assembly, tightly wrapped with cotton cord. Gecko puts out the lights and waits with NVGs and NEF .300 Magnum single-shot. Gunkid decides to adopt Gecko's Plan A and absorb enemy fire. Gecko seems to have forgotten that Gunkid does not have Second Chance body armor and Level IV trauma plates.
The crew, with pikes, pistols, and muskets, charge the hold. Gunkid double-taps the captain's wig, then performs a tactical reload. Gecko takes out the lead man with the NEF rifle. The G36 selective-fire comes out - complete with tactical rails holding two surefire lights, one visible red laser, one visible green laser (for brighter light), one infrared laser, a foregrip, red-dot sight and Starlight scope, etc. The gun is run dry, taking out the first line.
Gecko takes up the PSG-1 and fires five rounds from the hip, smashing the iron hoop on a barrel of apples.
Gunkid knows that that fate of the world is in his hands, and performs another quickdraw of his .22 pistol - with the same results as previously experienced. He pulls the gun out of his waistband and fires the remainder of the magazine. The first wave is down - but there are many more crewmen. Gecko reloads and waits. Gunkid fills his ten-round magazine with Aguilla .22 subsonic and prepares for the final moments. The captain has decided to up then ante, and has the muzzle of one of the guns pointed at the deck just above our two heroes. A gaping hole is now present. Gecko tosses up a flashbang, setting some of the rigging ablaze. Quick work with water buckets eliminate this problem, and more shots are fired.
Gecko and Gunkid decide to make a last great charge. Gecko mounts a bayonet on his G36.
The outcome of the battle is history. The low-grade Wolf .223 Gecko had smuggled into the country in 'Mortal Kombat' arcades jammed the gun badly, and the Mall Ninja Master pulled his Kahr P-9.
Gunkid went down bravely... well, he wanted to. He shot the captain down and decided to celebrate by spinning the pistol around his finger... and shot himself three times.
Gecko walked on walls and threw flying stars - but found it to be of no avail. He duelled and parried cutlasses with his ASP baton until a lucky shot... accidental shot, really... by Gunkid took him down.
The two were buried at sea, with all Ninja honors. Gunkid was sent down to be with his beloved Assault Wheelbarrow.
Thus the tale ends.
SnWnMe
Member
I just did some elementary geometry. If I recall it correctly and not taking into consideration the curvature of the earth, the angle subtended by a 204' long frig (The Constitution) @ 3000' (1000yd) if both sloop and frig are directly opposite each other is 204/3000 = .068. The angle whose tangent value is .068 is 3.89 degrees. So this means the M2 gunner is shooting a HARD recoiling machine gun with open sights on a platform that bobs up and down at a target that only takes up less than 4 degrees of the horizon (assuming I did everything correctly).
And if the frig keeps the distances wider, it is the sloop that will have difficulty hitting.
And if the frig keeps the distances wider, it is the sloop that will have difficulty hitting.
arthurcw
Member
Can't... Breath!
Can't... Stop... Laughing!
The 50 is accurate and effective on something like the Frigate at one MILE plus distance. If ammo is unlimited and the barrel life is unlimited this is a no-brainer. Stay out far enough to keep damage from the 1% of cannon ball that might possibly be able to make it to you minimized and hammer them with the 50. The 50 isn't that hard to shoot from a small boat either.
I have shot well over 100K rounds from an M2 50 cal, including at targets much harder than a wooden boat even if it is 3 feet of oak. I have also fired at vehicle sized targets from a mile out and further.
The frigate wouldn't stand a chance.
I have shot well over 100K rounds from an M2 50 cal, including at targets much harder than a wooden boat even if it is 3 feet of oak. I have also fired at vehicle sized targets from a mile out and further.
The frigate wouldn't stand a chance.
Shaughn Leayme
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 245
Shooting any gun from a moving boat, is not easy, I know I have done it.
But we are now (hypothetically anyway) trying to shoot a M2 browning accurately at a moving target that is at 2000 yards away (the accepted maximum effective range for this platform area shooting, point targets effective range 1500 meters) on a ship that relies on wind to be able to move, so if we have enough wind to move said ship at maximum speed, which for the sake of the discussion we will say 13 knots, that is a significant sea state, and we aren't talking a gentle swell, but a good rolling sea, which means the ship is going to have a lot of movement to it and with a standard pintle mount, with no shock buffers and basic sights (no electric ranging sights, no electricity) getting hit's at this range would be very hard, not impossible, but very hard.
But at 2000 yards, you are within the envelope of the guns, at the extreme, but within range., but the Frigate will not be running from you, it will be running towards you and this means, if you want to keep the range open, you must run. The captain of the frigate will choose a course that will allow him to use his bow chaser and since you are trying to keep the range open, you are going to need to travel as straight as possible as close to the wind as possible, but then you can begin to heel over to such a point that you begin to almost skip across the sea, and that is very inefficient way to sail, you lose speed and if too much sail is pressed on you can capsize, then you can also spill wind from your sails, in this maneuver, losing speed.
The frigate in the same situation, will not heel over anywhere as much and can put up more sail and due to draft, weight and length, more efficiently make use of the available wind and remain a very stable gun platform.
But let's now address the M2 and it's ammunition, a machine gun is an area weapon, much like a cannon is, but whereas the cannon fires one shot, the machine gun fires several at a time, but for it to be effective in battle it must have dispersion and with most loads used in an M2 we are looking at a mean radius for ammunition of 10 - 12 inches at 600 meters.
So we have a bobbing platform, a built in accuracy factor for the ammunition (mean radius), the ability to accurately estimate range and angle and closure rates and changing wind conditions (in your head or on paper, no computer) and to accurately call the fall of the rounds, when firing at extreme range, because the guy with the spy glass is going to be bobbing up and down just like the M2 gunner, then you have the other guy, lobbing 9 or 12 or 24 pound cannon balls your way, which may or may not be exploding shells (1812 time frame) and he doesn't have to look for little fish splashes to figure out higher or lower, left or right, he has a serious splash that can be seen at distance, making ranging a lot easier.
Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but my money will be on the Frigate, because the 50 cal is in reality a very small part of the whole picture of a naval encounter at sea under sail.
But we are now (hypothetically anyway) trying to shoot a M2 browning accurately at a moving target that is at 2000 yards away (the accepted maximum effective range for this platform area shooting, point targets effective range 1500 meters) on a ship that relies on wind to be able to move, so if we have enough wind to move said ship at maximum speed, which for the sake of the discussion we will say 13 knots, that is a significant sea state, and we aren't talking a gentle swell, but a good rolling sea, which means the ship is going to have a lot of movement to it and with a standard pintle mount, with no shock buffers and basic sights (no electric ranging sights, no electricity) getting hit's at this range would be very hard, not impossible, but very hard.
But at 2000 yards, you are within the envelope of the guns, at the extreme, but within range., but the Frigate will not be running from you, it will be running towards you and this means, if you want to keep the range open, you must run. The captain of the frigate will choose a course that will allow him to use his bow chaser and since you are trying to keep the range open, you are going to need to travel as straight as possible as close to the wind as possible, but then you can begin to heel over to such a point that you begin to almost skip across the sea, and that is very inefficient way to sail, you lose speed and if too much sail is pressed on you can capsize, then you can also spill wind from your sails, in this maneuver, losing speed.
The frigate in the same situation, will not heel over anywhere as much and can put up more sail and due to draft, weight and length, more efficiently make use of the available wind and remain a very stable gun platform.
But let's now address the M2 and it's ammunition, a machine gun is an area weapon, much like a cannon is, but whereas the cannon fires one shot, the machine gun fires several at a time, but for it to be effective in battle it must have dispersion and with most loads used in an M2 we are looking at a mean radius for ammunition of 10 - 12 inches at 600 meters.
So we have a bobbing platform, a built in accuracy factor for the ammunition (mean radius), the ability to accurately estimate range and angle and closure rates and changing wind conditions (in your head or on paper, no computer) and to accurately call the fall of the rounds, when firing at extreme range, because the guy with the spy glass is going to be bobbing up and down just like the M2 gunner, then you have the other guy, lobbing 9 or 12 or 24 pound cannon balls your way, which may or may not be exploding shells (1812 time frame) and he doesn't have to look for little fish splashes to figure out higher or lower, left or right, he has a serious splash that can be seen at distance, making ranging a lot easier.
Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but my money will be on the Frigate, because the 50 cal is in reality a very small part of the whole picture of a naval encounter at sea under sail.
cracked butt
Member
Sloop w/m2 vs Frigate?
Its conceivably possible to win with the sloop if you make really lucky hits in the righ places and stay out of range of the Frigate. Then again, its conceivably possible to take down a grizzly bear with a .25 raven handgun so long as you stay within the effective range of the cartridge, make really lucky hits in the right places, and stay out of range of its claws.
Its conceivably possible to win with the sloop if you make really lucky hits in the righ places and stay out of range of the Frigate. Then again, its conceivably possible to take down a grizzly bear with a .25 raven handgun so long as you stay within the effective range of the cartridge, make really lucky hits in the right places, and stay out of range of its claws.
Shaughn Leayme
Member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 245
cracked butt,
Right to the heart of the matter
Where were you earlier
Could have saved myself some typing
Right to the heart of the matter
Where were you earlier
Could have saved myself some typing
Probably the sloop with the .50 BMG would win. However, One does have to take into account that those early 19th Century sailors were as tough as nails. Life on those vessels was simply awful and they were hardened by years of tough physical labor and genuine suffering.
ZeSpectre
Member
If we're going to compare apples to apples we have to forget that theoretical unlimited ammo and other such unless you want to apply same to the frigate.
While I admit that the psychological effect of a .50 -might- carry some weight, any crew that would stand and fight in the face of 12 inch cannon balls and chain shot ripping along a deck (see Master and Commander if you want an idea) is probably NOT going to be very shocked by a .50 in action.
Sailing up the stern of a Frigate isn't going to be any easy feat either as there were things like stearn chasers (often Long Toms) and swivel guns mounted there. Also a Frigate isn't exactly slow or wallowing itself.
Fire crews might have a tough time with incendiary rounds, but not much worse than heated shot or cannister.
Also, everyone seems to be forgetting that sometimes frigates carried bombards with an even greater range and the ability to throw "greek fire". It was not an unknown (although dangerous) tactic to make a "fire raft" with kegs of greek fire and tow it behind a wartime sailing vessel. If another ship attempted an "up the kilt" shot the raft would be lit/exploded creating a lake of fire behind the ship and denying any following craft access for a time.
As someone else said, the sloop would have to be EXTREMELY lucky for an extended period of time. The Frigate would have to be lucky only once.
(now if a Frigate had a .50 to repel borders.....
)
While I admit that the psychological effect of a .50 -might- carry some weight, any crew that would stand and fight in the face of 12 inch cannon balls and chain shot ripping along a deck (see Master and Commander if you want an idea) is probably NOT going to be very shocked by a .50 in action.
Sailing up the stern of a Frigate isn't going to be any easy feat either as there were things like stearn chasers (often Long Toms) and swivel guns mounted there. Also a Frigate isn't exactly slow or wallowing itself.
Fire crews might have a tough time with incendiary rounds, but not much worse than heated shot or cannister.
Also, everyone seems to be forgetting that sometimes frigates carried bombards with an even greater range and the ability to throw "greek fire". It was not an unknown (although dangerous) tactic to make a "fire raft" with kegs of greek fire and tow it behind a wartime sailing vessel. If another ship attempted an "up the kilt" shot the raft would be lit/exploded creating a lake of fire behind the ship and denying any following craft access for a time.
As someone else said, the sloop would have to be EXTREMELY lucky for an extended period of time. The Frigate would have to be lucky only once.
(now if a Frigate had a .50 to repel borders.....
)SnWnMe
Yet the frigate can simply skip cannonballs on the waters surface without being as limited by line of sight problems. If the seas are at all rough then even more advantage goes to the larger more stable ship. Pretty obvious the sloop does not stand a chance.
Yet the frigate can simply skip cannonballs on the waters surface without being as limited by line of sight problems. If the seas are at all rough then even more advantage goes to the larger more stable ship. Pretty obvious the sloop does not stand a chance.
- Status