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50-state legal home defense carbine - a concept

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by cluttonfred, Apr 26, 2013.

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  1. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    I have an idea for a simple, inexpensive and lightweight home defense carbine/truck gun that would be legal in all 50 states and I'd like some feedback...

    • Pistol-caliber carbine in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP (each caliber a different model but with maximum interchangeablity of parts to lower cost)
    • 16.5 in barrel, slim contour for light weight
    • Straightforward blow-back operation (unless gas operation would save significant weight)
    • Last-shot bolt hold-open
    • Manual safety, perhaps a large and visible thumb safety on the stock like some shotguns
    • Box or rotary magazine (magazine and well sized for 9mm, so say 10 rounds in 9mm, 8 in .40 and 7 in .45)
    • Magazine normally fixed in place but easily removed for unloading with a small "key" attached to the sling
    • Integral guides for easy reloading from plastic stripper clips
    • Flip-up, protected "combat" aperture sights zeroed at 50m with fiber optic front post for low light conditions
    • Integral mounting rail on top of receiver for scope, red dot, reflex, etc.
    • Lightweight composite stock with threaded inserts in forend for optional short accessory rails is desired
    • Overal proportions and styling like a modernized M1 carbine
    • Target empty weight 2 kg (4.4 lbs)

    Let's hear your thoughts...I've got my fireproof underwear on!
     
  2. Inebriated

    Inebriated Member

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    What would this do that an AR couldn't?

    I don't ask to shoot your idea down, but because that would be your primary competition.

    I would be interested in seeing a sketch of this, as well. I do like the concept a lot... a Modern M1 Carbine would be sweet.
     
  3. nwilliams

    nwilliams Member

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    No need to create a new carbine that is 50 State legal, just buy a Beretta CX4

    Can't think of any State that could ban it.
     
  4. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    Why would I buy a nerfed weapon out here in the real world?

    My M1 Carbines do all that that gun could, and don't have a silly bullet button or on-purpose low-cap or stripper clips
    - detachable magazines are modern tech, they're here to stay until something better comes along

    My Sub2000 does all that carbine could, and folds, AND takes Block mags, up to 33 rounds easily available
    ... for that matter, this resembles a Hi-Point carbine in a lot of ways ... and while a HP carbine is about as much long gun as you can get for <$200, even it takes detachable mags

    ===

    Don't get me wrong, I see features you listed that I like, I just wouldn't buy the neutered weapon you want to attach them to.
    Aperture sights? Great! F.O. front? Great!
    Interchangeablity of parts? Good idea!
    Multi-caliber? Good!
    Lightweight PCC? Love 'em!

    But then we get to the garbage that panders to the subjects of CA/NY/NJ/etc ...
    Bullet Button? NOPE!
    Fixed mag? NOOOOOOPE!
    Stripper clips on a defensive weapon? NO, NO, NO!
     
  5. Bobson

    Bobson Member

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    The biggest problem with a carbine that's legal in all 50 states is it suggests that the rest of us ought to willingly comply with restrictions imposed in states like CA and NY. Most people won't do that. I sure wouldn't.
     
  6. Snowdog

    Snowdog Member

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    Laws change. Some feature of your concept that is legal in all 50 states today may be legal in only 49 tomorrow.
     
  7. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    Thanks, all, for the feedback. I respect your opinions and did not want this thread to turn into a debate on state or federal gun regulations.

    I actually like the idea of stripper clips if well-implemented--much lighter and cheaper than additional magazines and you could easily work out either a stock cuff or sling-mounted pouches to carry them at the ready. Made out of something like Delrin plastic they ought to be easier to use than the old steel ones if that feature is designed in from the start.

    Personally, I actually find a lot of the high-capacity stuff just silly if you're not going to war, more tacticool than necessary. I certainly wouldn't feel underarmed with ten rounds in a handy carbine. I still see a lot of Ruger Mini-14s in regular use with just the stock box of five, even in places where high capacity is not an issue.

    My thoughts on this were actually that the 50-state legality would be an incidental bonus--only the magazine removable with a tool was a deliberate nod to California and that could easily be optional.
     
  8. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    In .45ACP holding eight rounds, that's true, but the 14 rounds of .40 or 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm would be banned in those states that do not allow high capacity magazines.

     
  9. Flashcube

    Flashcube Member

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    Pretty sure they banned the Beretta in CT by name in the bill they passed just recently. Banned thumb-hole stocks too so it's out anyway. :cuss:
     
  10. Manny

    Manny Member

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    I had a .40 cal Beretta CX4 thinking it would be an ideal home defense, all around weapon, and it could have been but it was unfortunately a great idea poorly executed.

    -Absolutely lousy trigger, so heavy I thought the safety was still on at times.
    -No included top rail, and if you did buy one, you had to drill to install it. In this day and age? Unaccepable.
    -The silly and flimsy extendable "rail" on the front serves no purpose.
    -The molded in sights don't properly co-witness with most RDS sights.
    -It should have been set up to allow spare mags to be carried in the buttstock, like the Styer scout rifle.

    Those are my major gripes with the Beretta. If they were to redo it trading the silly swoopy styling for functionality and putting a decent trigger on it, they'd really have something. I would LOVE to se the concept done properly and would buy one in a second. A light handy carbine in 9mm/.40/.45 would be fantastically usefull. The 50 state part probobly wouldn't work as it would cause too many silly and detrimental design compromises delegated by the virulent anti-gun states. But still, a well done carbine such as an updated version of the military's M1 Carbine would be a real winner in my book.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  11. wgaynor

    wgaynor Member

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    Hi Point 995 was designed to be compliant with the AWB and now it's lumped with the other rifles that the politicians wish to ban.

    No matter what is created to be compliant, in a few years it will probably be on the ban list.

    This shows that it's not the type of gun that politicians want banned, it's all guns they want banned.
     
  12. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    There is a very good chance that what you describe won't be 50-state legal.

    CA SB 47 would, if made law, render about half your features meaningless. That's a current SB for 2013.

    If you want to get the job done, a 20” barrel 1892 clone in .44 magnum is, as far as I know, North America legal. As in 50 states + with the proper (attainable) paperwork you could legally travel through Canada or Mexico with one.

    If you want to do something cool, put that mental energy into fighting the laws. Much harder problem of course but if you don't fight the laws they'll eventually(January 1st, 2014 in this case) explicitly address the loophole magazine tools and become so strict that basically no semi-auto guns are legal to sell.
     
  13. Sav .250

    Sav .250 Member

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    There is no ,"one weapon fits all." That`s like saying,every one needs to drive the same car.
     
  14. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    The op wasn't after a "one weapon fits all", he was looking for....

    Cars are a good example. It's easy to forget nowadays but for decades there were "49 state" cars and "50 state" cars. The difference wasn't that 50-state cars were "one car fits all", but that 49-state cars could be sold in all but one state. The cars were basically identical, but the 50th state required some extra equipment that raised the price by a hundreds of dollars. Of course nobody outside of that 50th state bought "50 state" cars.
     
  15. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    I am not sure home defense is legal in all 50 states :rolleyes:
     
  16. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    Owl... the one major flaw in your initial concept that I see is the limitation on round capacity. You may think that limiting rounds is a good idea ... but I must disagree. In many parts of the country that might not be a problem but down here in Miami any confrontation with violence a strong possibility will have you facing multiple opponents. This isn't an exaggeration or armchair commando stuff. I worked local streets for 22 years and have a pretty good idea of what's possible, locally. As a retired cop I've chosen not to carry sidearms at all. My best defense is avoidance and that's worked pretty well for me (I don't advocate it for anyone else, at all...). If you choose to be an armed citizen down here you'd better be prepared and any weapon with a limited round capacity will never get my approval. A shotgun with addtional rounds on hand is a very good choice -but for pistol caliber weapons you're just asking to get in over your head unless you're using them while fleeing the scene....
     
  17. cluttonfred

    cluttonfred Member

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    Like I said, I respect the political views but I would still be interested in hearing your feedback on the gun concept itself. For example, what about the idea of stripper clip loading as a weight- and cost-saving measure or the choice of the M1 Carbine as a model for the ergonomics?
     
  18. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    SINGLE SHOT Ruger #1 in 45/70.
     
  19. CA Raider

    CA Raider Member

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    If I remember right ... Beretta CX4's and Hi-Points are illegal in CA ... or require some sort of mod (bullet button maybe). I looked into it a few years ago and was disappointed because the CX4 would have made a great home defense carbine for my family. AR's "don't work" for a lot of families because their appearance is too much like a military weapon - wives don't have a love affair with them :)

    To be successful -your proposed carbine must look like a home gun and not a military knockoff. In other words - use more wood and less black plastic :) Also, it needs to meet all the CA restrictions on weapons. If you do that - you might have something that would really sell!

    I personally would vote for a carbine that fires 357 magnums. But your choices of ammo are fine for home defense.

    CA R
     
  20. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    The problem is you can't divorce it from politics if half the signature features (tool-release mags, etc.) are the product of changeable politics.
     
  21. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    This will be a niche gun useful in 2 or 3 states that ban ordinary carbines, methinks. Some thoughts:

    If you're limited to a pre-1861 magazine size (if it's to be 50-state legal, you're limited to only 7 rounds!), the performance of those rounds had better make up for the absolute lack of reserve capacity. For that reason, I think full-house 125gr .357 would be better than 9mm or .40 S&W. If you go with 9mm, design it to function with everything from regular ammo to +P+.

    You'd need to either invent a better way to load a magazine from stripper clips, or think about other solutions for reloading. Compared to regular magazines, stripper clips are slow and fumble-prone. I'd suggest looking at an en-bloc clip instead (like the M1 Garand) and sell 7-round, 10-round, and 15-round versions to meet the needs of people in those states with restrictions.
     
  22. Unistat

    Unistat Member

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    .357 mag lever gun.
     
  23. CA Raider

    CA Raider Member

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    here's one thing you really need to think about.
    and this was what was REALLY on my mind when I wanted a home defense carbine.

    who is actually gonna' use this carbine?
    Answer: a very nervous wife ... with two kids in the adjacent bedroom.
    picture a situation where the husband is out of town on a business trip, so the wife and the kids are nervous. it's the middle of the night and there's a loud noise downstairs - clearly someone is breaking into the house. so the wife does what any mother would do - she grabs the carbine and rounds up the kids at the same time. it's a VERY difficult scenario - lots of fear, real danger, kids involved, a home owner holding a gun who does not have much training with the weapon.

    so your weapon needs to be super user-friendly. very good ergonomics. fits the human body really well. has low recoil. is accurate.

    there is always a place in the market for well-designed products.

    CA R
     
  24. FourTeeFive

    FourTeeFive Member

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    I personally think a semi-auto .45ACP carbine using standard 1911 magazines would be a very nice little weapon. To my knowledge one hasn't been mass-produced, although I've seen custom bolt-action carbines like this.
     
  25. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    Look into the MechTECH CCU. It is blowback done right (high reciprocating mass). The bolt and bold carrier weigh over 3 lb in the case of my 10mm (half the total weight of the gun) and it shoots cleaner than most pistols. High spring pre-tension helps but because of the progressive nature of springs (Hooke's Law) you need mass to delay a blowback. It has a manual hold open but can be configured to meet all of your other requirements.
    It will shoot 2-3 MOA all day long.

    Buffalo Bore Heavy 10mm will hit 1000 ft-lbs from a 13-14" barrel (slow a tad by 16") with recoil like a .223 varminter.

    Mike

    PS. Just avoid the temptation to make it Tacticool which I think is the reason many don't take the platform seriously. The options and accessories cater to the Tacticool market but the MechTech forum is full of tasteful accessory ideas.
     
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