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50 year C&R ruling to freeze?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Gunsnrovers, Jul 19, 2005.

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  1. Gunsnrovers

    Gunsnrovers Member

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    On Monday I had a meeting with a local ATF agent to review my C&R license application. Evidently a few aliases came up under my name and there was a conviction involved with one and they wanted to check me out.

    The agent was great. Very friendly. We had a nice hour conversation. He did mention one thing that caught my attention.

    We are now approaching a time period where M14's and M16's would qualify as C&R weapons. He stated that the BATFE is investigating freezing the rolling 50 year rule because of this. He then backed off and said it was only something he had heard being discussed and was not aware of any offical review or plan.

    Something to chew on.
     
  2. boofus

    boofus Guest

    It would be nice to have all those surplus M14s and M16s and M2 carbines put into the CMP and be C&R eligible wouldn't it?

    But until the 'no new machineguns' and 'once a MG, always a MG' laws are stricken it won't bloody happen. :(
     
  3. heypete

    heypete Member

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    It's not like they'd be available to civilians anyway, due to their full-auto bits.

    Would old military M14s and M16s be transferrable under the NFA to C&R holders?
     
  4. gezzer

    gezzer Member

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    Congress will have to do it ATF can't do that on thier own.
     
  5. 3rdpig

    3rdpig Member

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    Isn't it wonderful how the BATFE can create new law by simply changing their rules? First the rule about barrel imports now this. Obviously there's a liberal, anti gunner high in the ranks that's unhappy with the status quo. That or they're protecting their useless jobs.
     
  6. Gunsnrovers

    Gunsnrovers Member

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    I don't know what, if any, impact things would have on the more modern military weapons. I just found the topic curious that it was brought up.
     
  7. pmcbooks

    pmcbooks Member

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    That is a strange thing to say. You'd still be up against NFA and 922(o) with select-fire weapons. And you can't create a C&R market by replacing full-auto components with semi-auto because then it's not "in it's original configuration."

    There are exceptions to NFA on the C&R list; pistols with shoulder stocks and the like, but that'll never happen with full-auto. That creates a built-in decline of the value of the C&R license as we move into the modern+50 years era.

    Maybe he was just trying to get you to say, "gee, good thing I get all my machineguns illegally." :uhoh:
     
  8. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I've got a better idea: let's pull the financial plug on the B.A.T.F.E., put all those federal trough feeders in uniform, and send them out to secure the nation's borders.

    Illegal aliens are far more dangerous than gun collectors.
     
  9. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    As somebody who's looking at employment with the BATFE in the near future...

    I take exception to this:

    At a tour of an ATF laboratory not too long ago, I saw many things that Joe Citizen would be happy to pay a Federal Agency to work on. Hardly the jackbooted thuggery one would expect from what people post here at THR.

    One was bomb evidence from the Unabomber case, including parts and pieces of devices he never had the chance to finish and deploy. I'm sure Standing Wolf thinks the time spent on this case was a blatant example of federal tax dollars run amok. Oh, the horror.

    Another was a vengeful ex-husband who assembled a car bomb using smokeless powder and a road flare, that was tripped when the ex-wife's car started rolling. Luckily, she smelled something hot burning and got out to see the can of IMR4895 torching the floorpan of the car under the driver's seat. The forensic examiner wasn't wearing a SWAT ninja outfit, and he wasn't outfitting himself for a no-knock raid. Still, by gosh, we should cut him loose, give him a uniform, and make him watch the border. You betcha.

    Another ATF employee was taking bottles of whiskey and bourbon, and running them through a Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer. Why? To make certain that what you buy and drink matches what's stated on the label, and doesn't contain things that don't belong there, like methanol (wood alcohol). He also checks samples of wine for nitrites and nitrates. Yup, just another evil jackbooted thug, feeding at the government trough. Border patrol duty for him.

    The more I read stuff like what was posted in this thread, the more I think I'll take my forensics training and degree and give the ATF a return call. It has to be a kick in the pants milling about when folks are badmouthing your agency, and they ask you why you're politely smiling...

    Oh, yeah - I'd truly hate to be a moderator here. :scrutiny:
     
  10. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...'once a MG, always a MG' laws..." That's not a law. It's ATF policy. They make law, by regulation. Their forms you are required to fill in is defacto registration too.
     
  11. MICHAEL T

    MICHAEL T Member

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    I am so glad the ATF is doing those fine things. Now find them a uniform and give them a box of donuts a send them to the border. A B.A.T.F. agent is some one to afraid to steal for a living and not smart enough to be a real LEO. I guess you could retrain them and send to the airports once the borders are taken care of.You see I don't belive we need all these Federal Cops. :D
     
  12. thatguy

    thatguy Member

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    Why would they be more concerned about M16s than they are about Thompsons, Stens, MP40s and all the other MGs already over 50 years old and considered C&R?

    If an MG is C&R does that mean it doesn't need to be transferred through a Class III dealer? You still need to pay the federal transfer tax, right?
     
  13. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    All those things could be done by (and are for the most part being done by) other agencies ... then you could go to work with one of them with a relatively clean continence :p

    I would like to see the BATFE eliminated or at least restructured to have their ability to create Federal law out of thin air taken away from them.

    The problem is that they are in charge of enforcing rules they created ... there is no accountability.

    The FBI (for example) just investigates violations of established law ... they don't get to write the laws.



    The ATF (like the IRS) are abominations in our system ... the ATF started out as a tax collection agency. When you elevate your tax collectors to the level of police that's a big freakin' red flag ... if there was someplace else to go, that would be one sign that freedom loving people should be looking at buying real estate there (unfortunately there is no place to go so we're just screwed) :fire:
     
  14. NoViuM

    NoViuM Member

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    Here in Texas we have the Texas Alcoholic Beverage commission. I'm sure the taxes they levy could be use for them to police alcoholic beverages. Then again on the federal level with that little known organization called the FDA. I seem to hear they do quite well at tracking down bad meat products, as well as a few other things that are bad for the people.

    As far as investigating the Unibomber and other people who try to blow stuff up. Key word here INVESTIGATING. I think there's a Federal Bureau allready established to handle that as well.

    Not to discredit the intelligent and educated individuals that work for the ATF, but it just seems the organization, as a whole is a bit redundant. In today's world where every agency needs to share information in an efficient manner in order to counter real world threats, it just seems that cutting out the overlapping organizations would help curtail redundancy thus making government that much less expensive and more effective at their only real job which is protecting the populace as a whole.
     
  15. TarpleyG

    TarpleyG Member

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    All stuff that could be equally, or even better, handled by the Feebs IMO.

    Greg
     
  16. No_Brakes23

    No_Brakes23 Member

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    Obviously, if they were "liberal" they would let stuff slide, not introduce more conservative/restrictive rules. Liberal anti-gunner is an oxymoron.

    Standing Wolf, I totally agree. Let's make the DHS jokers do that too. Instead of hassling 5 year olds at the airport, they can actually do something about "Homeland Security" with the Border Patrol.
     
  17. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    even better than letting the FBI do it, would be letting the states do it, as that's what's allowed by the constitution.
     
  18. nomadboi

    nomadboi Member

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    Whoa there guys. There's a big step between saying it's an unneccessary institution with dangerous powers and calling all of its employees cowardly, stupid, and abusive... and that's a step that I thought folks at the High Road weren't supposed to take. Let's not make this personal and resort ton name-calling.
     
  19. Correia

    Correia Moderator Emeritus

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    I for one, am glad to see people like Gewehr going to work for the ATF. The more intelligent and reasonable people employed in places like that the better off we all are.
     
  20. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    Sorry, Sunray, "once a machine gun..." IS the law; that is just a slangy way of putting it, but the law defines a machinegun as any weapon DESIGNED to fire more than once for each pull of the trigger, etc., which means the same thing.

    That definition used to be that a machinegun was a weapon that DID or COULD BE MADE to fire more than once, etc. The law was changed in 1968 to prohibit machineguns from being deactivated and becoming "non-guns" which were then outside the NFA (and other gun laws).

    Jim
     
  21. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Well, have some hope, campers - a great number of M14s were built for the Navy as semi-auto only....I fired a few myself...
    What about foriegn made stuff? Curio and Relic doesn't just cover stuff 50 years or older, it also things that are unusual or rare, which is why factory nickle plated UZIs are on the list. Note the Romanian SKS being added to the list recently....What interesting designs rolled out 50 years ago??? I am truely curious how many firearms people can think of that will become C&R soon....and why the bloody fart is the M-1 Garand and Carbine NOT on the list?
     
  22. ajkurp

    ajkurp Member

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    What do you get when you pour clean water into dirty water? Just more dirty water.
     
  23. gringolet

    gringolet Member

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    Atf

    it is nice to know a federal agency is doing something worthwhile...seems the ATF may have undergone a bit of an overhaul in recent years...from a heavier anti-citizen/ anti-dealer view to a "gentler-kinder" ATF....it is a step in the right direction for sure...I love the USA and support it at home and abroad, BUT, get spooked when my government wants to declare its own citizenry "armed and dangerous" and unworthy to possess firearms while at the same time passes stuff like "motor voter" to bring wino's to the polling booth!
     
  24. GunnySkox

    GunnySkox Member

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    " Obviously, if they were "liberal" they would let stuff slide, not introduce more conservative/restrictive rules. Liberal anti-gunner is an oxymoron."

    I can't tell if you're mocking the term "liberal" as it pertains to the Left in this country, or if you just don't know that the term's connotation has changed since people like Locke and Montesquieu (sp?) set forth the ideas that came to be known as "liberalism".

    Y'see, 200-some-odd years ago, there were two camps with regards to individual freedom: LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES. The former thought that individuals had a whole bunch of freedoms just because they were individuals, and they they entered into a social contract with a government, thereby giving away a very few of their rights to secure the rest of them. The latter thought that individuals couldn't be trusted, and therefore formed a sort of social contract with a government to protect them from themselves, meaning absolutism and tyranny.

    Fast forward to modern times. At some point in the past couple decades, "Liberal" has come to mean "Leftist" and "Conservative" has come to mean "Right-Wing". I don't know which, but one side started calling the other one thing, and then the originally calling side started calling themselves the other name, because it was the opposite of the name they were calling the originally name-called party.

    "Liberal" now and "Classical Liberal" have about as much to do with each other as "music" 200 years ago and "music" now.

    Sorry if I've mistaken your meaning, but it just hacks me off when anyone tries to pull the old Denotation Game as a rhetorical strategy.

    Denotation = Dictionary Definition
    Connotation = Subjective Definition

    Example:
    Cool -- Denotation: of low temperature, not hot, etc.
    Connotation (as of right now): good, neat, nifty, awesome

    The Denotation Game is where someone tries to use the historical or dictionary or otherwise irrelevant definition of a word in order to make their side of the argument look/sound better, and or as an argument in and of itself.

    Ex: "Liberal has its roots in the word 'liberty', so if I'm a liberal, I fight for freedom!"
    Ex: "Conservatives originally fought for Absolutism and Tyranny, so if you're a conservative, you just want to keep people down and I, a Liberal, fight for the people's rights!"

    *huff*
    Sorry for the off-thread-topic post.

    ~Slam_Fire
     
  25. chopinbloc

    chopinbloc Member

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    you need to check your definitions. politically speaking, liberal means that a person believes that laws, the constitution, for instance are subject to interpretation and that things can and should change dramatically over time. hence the "muskets, not assault rifles" argument. conservatives believe in a literal or original interpretation of laws and are reluctant to change things unless there is no other way. in politics this ideology has gotten muddied and there are few real conservatives out there anymore. there are also progressives (read liberal) who believe in the original interpretation of the constitution but think we need drastic change on other social issues like medical care. a democrat is not neccessarily (though likely) anti-gun and a republican is not neccessarily pro-rkba.

    i might add that c&r is just a comfy way of saying "little or no combat value" and there will NEVER be a weapon like the m-14, m-16 on the list, in my opinion.
     
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