500 s&w - h110

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by kestak, May 25, 2009.

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  1. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I am facing a dilemna:

    Components:
    - Berry's plated bullets 350 gr
    - 39 gr H110
    - Wolf Magnum Large Pistol Primers
    - Starline Large Pistol Brass (*-*-* is the stamp)
    - I used Imperial wax to lube the exterior of the cases when I resized them.

    gun : BFR 10 1/2" barrel

    I made a few test rounds and they worked flawlessly. Then I made 200 rounds, checked the powder charge every 10 rounds one month and half ago.

    Yesterday, we went to shoot the gun. I have 2 other kind of rounds (14 gr Unique with 350 gr LP Magnum, and 700 gr Lead gas checked under 26 gr H110 LR magnum) and they all shot perfectly.

    Then we proceed to shoot the 350gr/39gr H110 rounds:
    - Firsr round: click....3/4 seconds....bang. Hang fire.
    - To make a short story: Second, third and fourth round click....pouf.... Bullet got pushed just enough to lock the cylinder.

    I examined those rounds. The powder was part yellow and part looking normal.

    I tested the primers by dissassembling 5 rounds and shooting them with no powder and no bullet in the dark. The gun produced at the muzzle a nice flash.

    What do you think?

    Thank you
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Starting load charge & low pressure.

    And you can't roll crimp a plated bullet heavy enough to get a good burn started without cutting through the jacket.

    The same load with a real jacketed bullet and a very heavy roll crimp would probably build enough pressure to get a good burn going.

    I can't see Berry plated bullets, and .500 S&W's, and H110 being a good combination at all.

    rc
     
  3. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    It makes sense. I did a crimp as much as I can without cutting the plate and indeed, I still did not like it.

    Will #9 be a good powder?

    Thank you
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    I don't know.

    Lyman shows a 350 JHP reduced load using 18.0 grains Unique for 1,368 FPS.

    AA #9 seems still too slow to me, but it might burn better then H-110.
    I don't know.

    rc
     
  5. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I use 14 grains of Unique under the 350 gr Berry's and it shoots very well. I used that load after it has been recommended by a friend using it. It is very tame too, not much of my wife's taste. She likes big recoil (but not me).

    Faster powder means least recoil for the 500S&W. right?

    Thank you
     
  6. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    No, I think 1,150 FPS vis 1,800 FPS means less recoil.

    rc
     
  7. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    If you continue to use Berry bullets, then you should heed rcmodel's recommendation not to use H110/Win296 with them.
    Your Unique load will be the one to use with those bullets. A charge of 15gr of Unique is still considered a light load according to a pay site that I use.

    If you want to use H110, a jacketed bullet will tend to take advantage of the slow ball powder with a good firm crimp.

    Hodgdon Lil'Gun might even give you a performance advantage in that big case.

    NCsmitty
     
  8. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    Indeed I'll follow RCmodel (and yours) recommendation. Tonight will be the great kinetic hammer rythm blues.... More than 200 rounds to dismantle...:banghead:

    Thank you
     
  9. B767Capt

    B767Capt Member

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    Very interested in this thread. I have a 550B and just got all the S&W 500 dies, shell plate etc. for it and also 500 pieces of starline brass and 500 berry 350's. I have Unique, AA#9, and Trail Boss. I have 3 manuals but no Berry data other than what I read here. Just looking for mid range loads to use at the range. I read where the Berry 350's had a little more plating on them. Using the RCBS roll crimp die. Have only shot factory 1900 fpm loads in it so far and love it. Also bought 1K of CCI #250 primers.
    Bill
     
  10. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I did a test last night and I need to run it by the most knowledgeable people here:

    I applied a strong crimp (adjustment: turn down the crimp die up to touching the case then turn the die 1 turn) on a berry'a plated bullet and use a kinetic hammer to remove the round.

    The case did not cut the plated. I took a look with a strong lense on the crimp groove (or whatever you call that) and there is just a mark on the tiny vertical lines.

    Is it possible Berry's plating is tick enough to support that kind of crimp?

    Of course, it is just academic knowledge because I do not plan to use these bullets with H110 anymore.

    Thank you
     
  11. joedapro

    joedapro Member

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    look into federal 215 primers. i thought the 500 required large rifle primers.
     
  12. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    It depends of the brass for the primers.
    Some brass, well identified by the "L" "R" letters take rifle primers. Starline identified with *-* takes rifle primers too. Starline with *-*-* is pistol primer.

    Thank you
     
  13. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    I found out the nature of my problem last weekend. All the ammo using LR primers is working. All the ammo using LP magnum primers is NOT working.

    I dissassembled a few rounds not working and put 14gr of Unique. It worked.

    Conclusion: H110 does not work in 500 S&W with LP magnum.

    Thank you
     
  14. Kernel

    Kernel Member

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    Classic problem normally seen when Large Pistol primers are used in rifle cartridges. The give away was in the original post: "hang fire" "click" "pouf". Kind of a head scratcher. First I was thinking head space, till I remembered the 500 S&W was designed for Large Rifle primers (some of the other posters caught it, too).

    Large Pistol primer pockets are 0.118" to 0.122" deep. Large Rifle primer pocket depths are 0.128" to 0.132". Companies manufacture their primers accordingly so that they are a few thousandths below flush.

    Basically, the Large Pistol primers were seated so deep in the primer pocket (I'd guess somewhere between 0.010 to 0.015" to deep) the firing pin could not make constistant contact.
     
  15. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    The brass is not marked for LR, so it is LP. This is starline brass and it is indicated on their website the brass made for LR is marked witha 'R". The brass I have is not...

    One possibility: I bought that brass once fire...Maybe I was lied to and someone did fire it more than once and deepened the primer pocket...:what:

    Thank you
     
  16. Kernel

    Kernel Member

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    kestak, instead of trying to read and interpret the tea leaves (head stamps) why not just measure the primer pockets with a caliper. If they're 0.128" to 0.132" deep they're Large Rifle. It ain't that hard. A 0.010" difference is pretty easy to detect.

    When primer pockets stretch they don't get deeper. They get wider. You'll know there's a problem when the primers are backing out, or falling out, with loads you know are within spec.

    But I doubt even your used brass would be stretched. Come on. In the history of Earth I doubt there's been a single 500 S&W primer pocket stretched yet. Who gonna shoot full power loads in that monster more than a couple of times anyway? ;)

    Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if you see 40 plus full power reloads on that brass before any fatigue problems occur. Would be fun experiment, though. Take some reloading eqt to the range. See how many loads it takes to fatigue a 500 S&W shell casing. What would go first? The pocket? Incipient seperation? A split? Where? What type?
     
  17. EddieCoyle

    EddieCoyle Member

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    Crimp them harder.

    I bought 500 of those bullets and had a similar problem (using H4227) so I called Berrys and asked about the bullets.

    These have much thicker plating than the 'standard' Berrys bullets - and a cannelure - so they can be roll crimped. They can also be driven much faster than the 1200 fps limit on the other Berrys plated bullets. The people at Berrys told me to keep the velocity at 1800 fps or under.

    Take a look at the bullets. See how little bearing surface there is below the cannelure? Barely 5/16" of the bullet is actually inserted in the case if you load the cartridge so that the cannelure is at the top of the case. You have to roll crimp them or the velocity is all over the map.

    As a test, I kept lowering the crimp die to see if I could cut the plating. I buckled the case to the point where the cartridge wouldn't chamber and the plating was still intact. These bullets are not the typical plated bullet. I put a strong roll crimp on the remaining bullets and they became my favorite .500 plinking load.

    ETA - I used CCI LR Magnum primers
     
  18. roXefeller

    roXefeller Member

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    Same problem with 44 Mag

    I have this same problem with my 44 Mag. The reload is:

    Once fired speer cases
    H110 23gr
    Wolf large pistol primer (not magnum)
    Rainier plated bullets 240gr (w/o a crimp ring)

    In my case, the powder was squeezed a bit more than needed. The bullet got past the cone, to the end of the barrel before stopping. The unburned powder riding behind it. Do you still think it is the "Starting load charge & low pressure." as RCModel put it. Can you explain what you mean by this?
     
  19. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    Like it was said many times and it is beeing said by the manufacturer, H110 needs magnum primers because it is a harder powder to ignite.

    It also needs a strong crimp.

    Your load is within most of my books. In one book, it shows 23.5 to 24.5, in another book it shows 24 to 25.5. Me, I would go with the website.

    Thank you
     
  20. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    Welcome to THR, roXefeller.

    As kestak mentioned, absolutely use a Magnum primer with H110 & W296 (same powder), along with a firm crimp.
    I personally do not care for H110 because of it's traits, and have used Alliant 2400 in the 44 Mag.
    I do use H110 in some of my 410 shotshells.


    NCsmitty
     
  21. roXefeller

    roXefeller Member

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    Thanks for the welcome.

    A follow-up, how much can the charge be compressed to meet the OAL? This is assuming published loading numbers.
     
  22. NCsmitty

    NCsmitty Member

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    I have seen H110 charges as high as 24.8gr for use in rifle only, under a 240gr jacketed, so apparently it can be compressed more than what you're loading.
    COAL is not etched in stone if you don't have to conform to a preset cannelure and it still fits the cylinder.


    NCsmitty
     
  23. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    kestak,
    Are you sure about that Starline brass? The 500 Magnum should use a Rifle Primer because the cup is heavier and is needed because of the pressure generated buy the .500 Magnum. I'm not even sure there is a difference considering all .500 Magnum rounds should use a rifle primer. Are you sure there are 2 different 500 Magnum brass cases made by Starline, that's hard to believe. (no offense meant)

    As for powder, if you continue to use plated bullets you should stop using W296/H110. I think H4227 will work a little better with plated bullets but I'm not totally sure. The best solution would be to change bullets because H4227, W296/H110 and Lil'Gun are the best powders for the .500 Magnum and all are fairly hard to ignite. You might get fair results with 2400 but I doubt you will generate top velocities.
     
  24. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Greetings,

    Archangel: I was unsure about the brass until I set a pistol and a rifle primer and measured the seating dept. In fact, I did not have to measure the dept but the rifle primer beeing over the seating line. There is no way that brass can be for rifle primer.

    On the starline website, they mention they made brass with pistol primer too.

    I got a good load with the berrys bullet that works with rifle primers and I put a strong crimp. I dissassembled a few rounds and the "jacket" is not cut.

    Many people gave me the same advise than you with the Berrys bullets, I took them into consideration but I tested and called Berrys. Berrys told me the plating is thicker since a while on those bullets BECAUSE they determined people needed to crimp a lot more than the other bullets they make. The gentleman told me I can crimp strongly but I am better to check if I don't crimp too much by looking at the bullet. It is what I did...:)

    The gun now fired about 300 of those bullets succesfully with no issue.

    Thank you
     
  25. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    That sounds like a plan then, good luck...
     
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