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51% Signs in TX ????

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Smoke, Sep 26, 2003.

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  1. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    Help me out .....

    As I understand the laws here in TX if a bar/restaurant makes 51% of their income from ON PREMISE consumption they must post the 51% sign stating it is unlawful to carry there.

    The local beer/liquor store, not licensed for ON PREMISE consumption recently put up a 51% sign. I beleive they are confused. I also question whether the sign they put up is the proper one or not.

    Now, I am a law abiding citizen and am not going to carry past the sign even if it is the incorrect one. (Especially here since it is the only beer store around and owned by a friend of mine.:D ) but should Ipoint out he is posting the wrong sign (if he indeed is...) or just ignore the whole situation and "mind my own bidness"?
     
  2. sm

    sm member

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    If the friend is indeed the owner, I'd point it out. Have copy of statute for him to read for himself. Might be an opportunity , if he is not a shooter, or doesn't have CCW, to add another to our side. Might be good to have stats and point out a CCW may be a good idea for him personally in his situation.

    Might be worth springing for the range fee and ammo...sounds like he might reciprocate if coverted later on. ;)
     
  3. No4Mk1

    No4Mk1 Member

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    There is a lot of confusion, even in the ranks of TABC, about what signs go where. According to the law you only have a problem walking past a 51% sign if IN FACT the establishment does derive 51% or more of its revenues from on-site consumption. Liquor stores frequently put these signs up in ignorance but they are meaningless in this case.

    If I had a reson to go into such an establishment I would ignore the sign and proceed without concern.

    No4.
     
  4. synoptic

    synoptic Member

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    First off, the signs do not have to be posted at a bar or other establishment that makes 51% or greater...Unfortunately you're just supposed to know. Second, a business that warrants such a sign may be able to post it in their window even on a premises where the alcohol isn't served, i.e. an administration office or something. My CHL instructor wouldn't commit, but told us to be weary of that. A 51% sign on a place like walmart I would think wouldn't be legal and therefore unenforcable.
     
  5. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    synoptic
    I beleive you are mistaken on that point.

    No4Mk1
    I will as soon as the first case comes to court and a legal determination is made. I don't want to be that court case.:)
     
  6. tiberius

    tiberius Member

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    Yeah, that's the trick. The establishments are required by law to post the 51% signs, but the fact that the sign is not posted is not a defense for the CHL holder. If it looks like a bar, don't go in if you want to carry.

    That said, if you are sure that there is no consumption on the premises, then you are legal to carry, so don't worry about it. The sign is not what matters here.
     
  7. synoptic

    synoptic Member

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  8. tiberius

    tiberius Member

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    For total clarification regarding posting of signs, also refer to Texas Admistration Code which is where I got the rest of my info.

    http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC

    Below is a quote from Title37 Part 1 Rule 6.43
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A license holder may not carry a handgun on or about the license holder's person under authority of the Act in the following places:

    (1) On the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Alcoholic Beverage Code, Chapters 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, if the business derives 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. Posting is required by the Act, but an establishment's failure to post is not a statutory defense to the license holder. Violation is a third degree felony under Texas Penal Code, §46.035.
     
  9. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.
    (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter
    25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51
    percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for
    on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
    Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage
    Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business
    premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

    **********************

    This is why I made the statement. I think everybody here is about 1/2 right:D

    Too many laws from too many sides. Got to read them all. :fire:
     
  10. No4Mk1

    No4Mk1 Member

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    Bottom line....

    Concealed means CONCEALED....
     
  11. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    True. But in small town TX where I know every Sherriffs deputy personally and most know I have my CHL....I don't think they would hassle me but if they do their job they might warn me ...ONCE. :eek:
     
  12. jsalcedo

    jsalcedo Member

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    This only deals with establishments that have a license for on site consumption of alcohol.

    The bar must have a 51% sign to be TABC compliant if they do indeed have
    51% or more of their sales in booze.

    Liqour stores are not part of this rule.
     
  13. tawakoni

    tawakoni Member

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    By all means, speak to the owner or manager (politely). Sometimes a phone call to the corporate office is necessary. The establishment must post the sign that they receive from the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission and sometimes TABC just gets it wrong. I've gotten no less than FOUR businesses to change their signs from the 51% FELONY NOTICE to the CHL-friendly signs (the UNLICENSED possession of a firearm on these premises is a felony...).

    One time I got the sign changed in less than 10 minutes by calling the VP of Restaurant Operations at Corporate Headquarters. Another one took more than a year. The owner of this establishment tried repeatedly but couldn't get anywhere with TABC. I tried also but hit a stone wall with the Gummint. This establishment sold more than $300,000 in hamburgers and less than $20,000 in beer each year. I got the impression that TABC really hates to admit they made a mistake. The sign didn't change until someone else bought the place which required a new beer license.

    Best

    tawakoni
     
  14. tiberius

    tiberius Member

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    Felony means FELONY.....
     
  15. Jesse H

    Jesse H Member

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    In Houston, there's a little sushi place downtown called Wasabi that's got me all sorts of confused.

    During the day, it's pretty much like a restaurant, at night, it's alot more like a bar. They have the 51% sign posted by the actual bar...but in the area by the restrooms, they also have an "unlicensed carry of firearms is prohibited" sign.
     
  16. tiberius

    tiberius Member

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    Well according to the code, a CHL holder cannot carry on:

    (1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

    And "premises" is defined as:

    "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.


    To me that means you can't carry in there legally....assuming that their sign is correct. Considering the price of Sushi, They probably don't meet the requirements, but who knows?
     
  17. tawakoni

    tawakoni Member

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    Jesse, now that really IS confusing. And I'll bet that TABC got it wrong and poor Wasabi is at their mercy.

    Best.

    tawakoni
     
  18. Silent Bob

    Silent Bob Member

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    For Pete's sake, the sign is not a legal sign because it only applies to bars, not liqour stores. Only a 30.06 sign can stop you. And if you ever see any business with an improper sign forbidding carry, for pete's sake do NOT inform them, lest they actually do some research and put up the proper, legal sign.
     
  19. Pendragon

    Pendragon Member

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    The Taco Cabana by my place has the "Unlicenced carry = Felony" sign - but they also have another sign that was partly obstructed but seemed to say that The business did not allow firearms on the premises.

    If I understand it right, the 30.06 law is VERY specific about the sign - does anyone have a picture of a legit sign?

    Also - would it have to be at the door? These are behind the register.
     
  20. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Jesse, Mamacita's in Kerrville is like that!:D The exception is that the sign is behind a wall in some sort of trophy case that you can only see when hitting el bano.:rolleyes:
     
  21. ChickenHawk

    ChickenHawk Member

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    The language and size of the letters is very specific, but the actual 30.06 sign is just text. You can make it yourself as long as it meets the requirements (has to be in both english and spanish, too).

    You can see an example at: http://www.tsra.com/Sign3006.htm

    I notice nobody mentioned the TABC sign which is supposed to be displayed at package stores that sell alcohol which is not consumed on premises. I think this one is still on the books. I never understood the point of this sign since it describes the unlicensed carry of concealed guns which is illegal anyway!

    That one is at: http://www.tsra.com/SignTABC.htm

    I couldn't find a 51% sign online.

    Cheers,
    ChickenHawk
     
  22. J.J.

    J.J. Member

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    I don't yet have my CHL, but I have been keeping an eye open and have noticed 3 businesses in San Marcos, Texas that have improper signage simply a sign near the front door stating “Guns Prohibited on these premises†or some other nonsense. Seeing as how they are NOT the proper 30.06 sign I will ignore/ take business elsewhere when I eventually get a CHL.

    It amazes me the amount of improper signage I see.
     
  23. Logistar

    Logistar Guest

    Here in KY I went to a restaurant called UNO's. They have a large BAR on one side of the restaurant with it's own BAR entrance but it is one building and you can walk freely between the two sections.

    Anyway, I asked a waitress and then the manager if they received over half of their revenue from the bar. They had no idea.

    My point is.. how are you supposed to avoid violating the law if the establishments don't know. - and if I am out and want to stop and eat, I don't have time to write a letter and wait for a response.

    If I am trusted to carry a gun, I should BE TRUSTED TO CARRY A GUN ANYWHERE!:cuss:
     
  24. No4Mk1

    No4Mk1 Member

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    Hmmm... funny, I don't remember suggesting anyone should commit a felony...:rolleyes:
     
  25. Pendragon

    Pendragon Member

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    Yes, I have seen some posit that the improper signage is just to keep the sheeple fat and happy.

    Still, you would think that some MMM crusader type would catch on to this and sponsor a "upgrade your sign" program of some kind.

    I find the sociological aspects of this quite fascinating.

    Seems we dont want to say too much lest they get proper signage. Perhaps they dont want to say anything lest they educate people that mose signs are meaningless.
     
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