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6.5 Creedmoor past present future

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by horsemen61, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    One thing I find amusing is how many people used to sneer at simple old cup-and-core bullets, yet with the rise in popularity of PRS and long range precision shooting, the 6.5 Creedmoor, etc, a lot of the same people now suddenly love these sleek cup-and-core bullets like the Hornady ELDs. Sometimes you'll see them run numbers and point out how much more energy is retained over dumpier options. So either the fancy bonded, partitioned and mono "premium" bullets aren't necessary for most hunting people do, or a cup-and-core impacting two or three hundred feet per second faster beats a "premium" bullet that hits a bit slower.
     
  2. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    A lot of the typical factory Creedmoor stuff puts a 140 at 2,700 or a bit faster. And this reminds me of how the standard 7.62 NATO load sends a 147 at about 2,800. It's clear there will not be a giant difference in recoil. But I find it funny how I have many times seen people claiming there's hardly a point to buying a .243 anymore, because the 6.5 recoils like a .243 and hits harder than a .308. Neither of which is true. The theoretical calculations claim the 140 gr 6.5 has 70% of the recoil of a 180 gr .308 load. But they also say a 100 gr .243 has 70% of the recoil of a 140 gr 6.5 load.
     
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  3. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    I would agree on the recoil. I am not sure I can tell the difference in a 6.5 CM shooting 140's and a .308 shooting 150's. It's all in the same ballpark to me, so that's a wash. Certainly not enough reason to choose the CM, which is a bit disappointing because for hunting, the CM doesn't offer any real significant advantage over a 7mm-08, and it has a few disadvantages by comparison.

    However, for a range rat who occasionally hunts, the CM makes a lot of sense - more than most other popular SA calibers today. In fact, I'd say it's the perfect caliber for someone who spends a lot of time on the range, and who might take that rifle hunting a few times each year. And I think that was the whole point.
     
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  4. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    So why didn't the 300 win mag, 300 WSM, 300 RSAUM, or 300 RCM ever become as popular as the 308 winchester? Why did anyone ever buy a 308 when we already had 30-06? Hunters and competitive shooters are both migrating to smaller cartridges, not bigger. Take a look at the article below. 6.5 creedmoor is already loosing market share among competitive shooters and its not to bigger cartridges, they are all smaller. People always say its just a target cartridge, but as it turns out 6.5 creedmoor was a bigger success as a hunting cartridge than it currently is as a target cartridge.

    https://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/02/16/long-range-calibers-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/
     
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  5. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I personally find the recoil to be significantly less than a 308 and significantly more than a 243. Its about half way between in my estimation from the rifles I've shot. My only 6.5 creedmoor is a 10lb AR10 which recoils about the same as a 7 lb 223 AR15. I can see my hits in the scope at 200 yards with no muzzle brake. I've shot a couple bolt guns in 6.5 and thought they were both pretty mild.
     
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  6. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    If the 6.5 PRC had been marketed first, instead of the Creedmoor, it would now hold the same market as the Creedmoor.

    Creedmoor owners keep telling me that hunting is diminishing in popularity among millenials in favor of long range target shooting and this is the reason why they are all buying this cartridge and rifle. According to them the Creedmoor is beyond compare in for this purpose.
    Yet, you say the opposite. You claim that it is more popular as a hunting cartridge. I find that a bit contradictory.

    In either case the PRC clearly is a superior cartridge to the Creedmoor. A flatter shooting and more powerful 6.5 that can handle heavier bullets and still fit in a short action, with the same accuracy at long range. In comparison, the Creedmoor is disappointing.
     
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  7. HardCase

    HardCase Member

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    I personally love both the 308 and 6.5CM rounds, they are very balanced, accurate, usable in many actions, easy to handload, moderate-light recoil, and just all around excellent. Are there rounds that'll shoot flatter than the CM? Sure. The PRC will, or hell, why not resurrect the ol' 264 Win. Mag., that was a good one in it's day although it'd wear out a barrel in less than 1000 rounds, but they were hella fast.

    You can pretty much one-up most rounds in terms of velocity if you're willing to pay the price. Is it worth it? You decide.
     
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  8. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Based on how much money that 6.5 Creedmoor target shooters spend on scopes and rifles, I don't think that a bit more cost would matter to them. But, if Creedmoor owners are willing to accept the Creedmoor as a second-best and cheaper alternative to the 6.5 PRC, then it will remain a popular low-cost alternative to a better cartridge. Not the best anymore but cheap and cheerful.
     
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  9. horsemen61

    horsemen61 Member

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    Man a 6.5 Creedmoor in a blued and wood rifle old school cool that’s what I want!
     
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  10. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I disagree entirely.
     
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  11. Crowman

    Crowman Member

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    I’m very happy with the cartridge. Should have a bright future. I am not a competitive target shooter and not interested in the game. I see the 6.5 Creedmoor as the 21st Century version of dad’s whitetail rifle. I bought my synthetic camo stock 6.5 Creedmoor Rifle exclusively for hunting up in the densely forested upland hardwood ridges around my home. The cartridge is easy to shoot, hits hard, penetrates like no tomorrow. Got enough horsepower for black bear and hawgs too. I’ve got no use for anything that kicks hard any more...getting along in years now. I can shoot the Creed for extended periods with no discomfort. Plus I can buy my hunting ammo at Walmart...Federal Fusion 140 gr. A real deer hammer.

    My rifle is the Ruger GSR Scout Rifle outfitted with a Ching Safari Sling and Leatherwood Hi-Lux 2-7X32 EER Scout scope mounted forward with QD rings. The bolt action is glass smooth and the GSR handles well. It makes meat each year. Great little stalking gun.

    If I want a paper puncher for informal plinking, I will break out the rimfires or I’ll buy and scope a CZ 527 micro Mauser Rifle with set trigger and 24” barrel, chambered in 6.5 Grendel. Those have beautiful walnut, blued steel and not one piece of plastic anywhere...even the magazine follower is steel...real old school Euro beauty...plus the set trigger is amazing. Got a yearning for one...
     
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  12. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why? I think that everything that I have said is true. The PRC is clearly a superior cartridge which exceeds the old 6.5 Swedish ballistics of the Creedmoor. It's just as accurate with a flatter trajectory and it's a better hunting round that can handle heavier bullets.
     
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  13. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Decent performance, but not as good. I don't know if the PRC will replace the Creedmoor, but it is clearly a superior 6.5 cartridge that can do anything that the Creedmoor can do and more. The Creedmoor is second best.
     
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  14. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    If your definition of superior is higher muzzle velocity then yes the PRC is superior. That's not what made 6.5 creedmoor successful though.
     
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  15. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    We already had 264 win mag, 6.5 WSM, 6.5 A-square, 6.5x284, 6.5 remington mag, and 26 nosler. Why is 6.5 PRC better that those, and why weren't any of them commercially successful?
     
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  16. cougar1717

    cougar1717 Member

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    Exactly.... Without this being a "hate on" thread, the 6.5C does some things well. It was marketed well. It is popular and "passes the WM test." It uses high bc projectiles. It can use those high bc projectiles in an AR-10/LR308 action and still fit in the mag. It has less recoil than 308 Win. It could be used for long range shooting with a quality rifle. Even the inexpensive rifles chambered for it are generally accurate.

    But... it's not the end all be all caliber by any means.


    If we are being honest, it's a target cartridge that isn't being used by the most serious PRS competitors.
    Although it wasn't first a hunting cartridge, it does have good qualities. What can it do hunting-wise that others can't? (This can be debated forever.)
    However, it could really use more powder capacity.
    It's big brother the 6.5PRC or the similar 6.5 WSM wildcat are not going to attain the 6.5C's popularity.

    I personally think that most people purchasing 6.5C's have aspirations of long range shooting. It is a great cartridge on paper. The only thing is that the vast majority of purchasers will probably never use it past 400 yards. The vast majority of purchasers may never compete with their 6.5C's. The same could be said of 308Win purchasers. All of this is ok. I think what gets under people's skin the most is the elitist attitude of some 6.5C owners that think they have purchased the greatest caliber ever and that anyone who thinks differently is out of touch with the times.

    6.5C has attained popularity and we will have to see what kind of staying power it has.

    Here is a totally unscientific measure of popularity: The number of loads that Midway USA carries for each rifle caliber as of today. These are the ones that are greater than 50 loads.

    300WM - 73
    30-06 - 105
    308Win - 133
    7mm RM - 59
    270Win - 56
    6.5 Creedmoor - 62
    243Win - 51
    223 Rem - 116

    Only time will tell it's future, but a lot will come down to simply: "What can you do with it?"
     
  17. MCMXI
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    MCMXI Contributing Member

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    I'll tell you what it can't do ... and that's kill gemsbok quickly. A coworker returned last night from a hunting trip to Africa with his family and they used a 6.5 CM (Federal Trophy Copper 120gr) for gemsbok, wildebeest and springbuck. Based on his account of the three gemsbuck they shot I'd say that the cartridge/bullet combination wasn't a great choice for that particular animal given the number of shots needed and the time it took for the animals to expire. @H&Hhunter and others are much better qualified to talk about gemsbok and how tough they are and whether or not the 6.5 CM is a good choice, but my coworker's account is compelling.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
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  18. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I personally wouldn't use a 6.5C for that size game myself, but the bullet choice (solid copper) probably has as much to do with it as the cartridge. I'm not a fan of the mono metal bullets. I personally think the 6.5's are ideally suited to game the size of larger whitetails, mule dear, goats, hogs, caribue ect... but I would be stepping up to a 284 or 30 caliber cartridge if I were going for something the size of Gemsbuck.
     
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  19. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Good question. But you are arguing apples and oranges, IMHO.
    I was making the point that the 6.5 PRC is superior compared to the 6.5 Creedmoor in performance for target shooting and hunting, in a similarly short cartridge, which it is. I never claimed that it was a superior cartridge to the other cartridges that you mention.
    You are arguing that the 6.5 Creedmoor is a superior cartridge based on it's commercial success. Perhaps these other cartridges are also capable of similar long range accuracy with a flatter trajectory and more effectiveness for hunting compared to the Creedmoor.

    We all know that acceptance, popularity, and commercial success doesn't necessarily equate to superior performance.
    Perhaps the Creedmoor is simply the Justin Bieber of the rifle cartridge world.
     
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  20. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    I have one. ;) Savage that I assembled myself. It's a neat little hunting rifle that's very attractive.
     
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  21. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Oh your missing me entirely, I'm not arguing that its superior to anything. It is superior to me in that it better fits what I want it for without the extra recoil, muzzle blast, power usage, reduced barrel life and component costs that come with a higher volume cartridge. It appeals to me and evidently a lot of other people because its in a sweet spot where the ballistics are just enough for what most people need, not to big, not to small, just right in the middle and easy to live with. I never said its superior for what you may need it for.

    So anyway what I am saying is more is not always better, if you want more you can have more. I don't want any more. I do have a 6.5x284 as well for when I want to burn 50% more powder for 10% more velocity. Its probably going to go away as I don't shoot it much.
     
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  22. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Cheap and cheerful, sells ammo and rifles, or so it seems :D

    Im In the same boat, i can scratch 2950 with my 6.5-284 and the same 140 my CM gets 2800 with.
    i happen to realy LIKE thr rifle tho, so probably wont sell it anytime soon.
     
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  23. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Quite true. Glad that you agree with me about the Creedmoor.
     
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  24. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Apparently, your assessment of the 6.5 Creedmoor is that while there are certainly superior cartridges like the PRC out there for the purpose, it works well enough for you. Fair enough.
    Honestly, though I think that the hoopla about the other cartridges having excessive recoil and muzzle blast and decreased barrel life is overblown. How much difference can there be in these things for the 6.5 PRC with 200 FPS additional velocity with more powder capacity?
    Not much.
    And, if the 6.5 PRC had come first, and there had never been a Creedmoor, I think that PRC shooters would be making the same arguments about it being just enough for what most people need, not to big, not to small, and easy to live with.
    In the end cartridge loyalty and subjective opinions seem to take a back seat to objective reality.
     
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  25. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    I totally agree that the CM dosent offer the performance of the PRC, tho it comes closer than most other short action cartridges do to their short magnum counterparts.
    As @someguy2800 pointed out tho, performance does not a winner make. If so the megamagnums would have much better sales records.
     
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