6.5 Creedmoor past present future

[horsemen61]

Uhhhhh yeah... that’s not what I did or said but you are welcome to read anything you’d like into my comments, I guess.


I’ll just lay it out for you. I like the 6.5CM, I think it is a fantastic round for recoil sensitive shooters that punches above its weight on big game. As do all 6.5 MM rounds of similar ballistics.

Besides being very well supported commercially it does nothing more and nothing less than any other 6.5 round of similar ballistics.

My daughter has a Steyr Scout in 6.5 CM and she loves it. If it makes her want to shoot moor and hunt moor then I’m all for her Creedmoor.

I won’t be owning one anytime soon as I have no need for one.

Wasn’t referring to you directly @H&Hhunter
I apologize if you felt I was like you I think it’s a great round

*To be honest though I am tired of hearing about the whole it doesn’t do anything better than blank cartridge nobody is saying it was brought out to best some other cartridge as far as I can tell.....

*I do think in “factory rifles with standard twists it is better than the .260 Rem” but ymmv

 

[taliv]

if you like 6.5cm, you'll love 6cm

 

[Llama Bob]

But seriously, here are quickload predictions of top velocities with popular powders you can get in america for 6.5x55 and 6.5 CM, both loaded with 143gr eldx to 62ksi in 22" barrels at SAAMI max OAL.

6.5x55 Swede:

Reloder 26 - 51.8 gr -> 2,902 fps
Norma MRP C - 50.6 gr -> 2,876 fps
Viht N560 - 50.4 gr -> 2,867 fps
MagPro - 52.6 gr -> 2,858 fps
IMR 7828 SSC - 50 gr -> 2,853 fps
Reloder 17 - 45.6 gr -> 2,816 fps
Reloder 16 - 44.6 gr -> 2,815 fps
Reloder 19 - 47.9 gr -> 2,802 fps

6.5 Creed:

Reloder 26 - 49 gr -> 2,886 fps
Norma MRP C - 47.9 gr -> 2,854 fps
IMR 7828 SSC - 47.1 gr -> 2,816 fps
Reloder 17 - 43.2 gr -> 2,801 fps
Reloder 16 - 42.2 gr -> 2,794 fps
Viht N560 - 47.0 gr -> 2,792 fps
Reloder 19 - 45.2 -> 2,773 fps


The 4.8 gr useable case capacity difference does give the old man a 16 fps advantage on the top end, and 20 - 60 fps advantage among the similar powders the two do best with. Assuming you are reloading in a modern action, don't mind loading 11ksi above SAAMI MAP and don't mind the deficit of good published load data for such loads.

I was never able to get above ~ 2,750 fps in my 22" 6.5x55 without getting a stiff bolt, but I'll admit my limitations in that I was using a sub-standard action (Rem 700) and I was mostly playing with H4350 and RL22, without much in the way of good high pressure load data available. Nothing wrong with the 6.5x55, but the juice didn't seem worth the squeeze to me, especially since there is a well marketed and widely supported easy button now that does very much the same thing.

There's a bit more to the story. One of the factors in QL's calculation is something called Sebert's factor, or "weighting factor". It's listed at the bottom of the cartridge dimensions window. It is the fraction of unburnt powder that's sent down the barrel rather than being trapped in the shoulder. The 6.5CM, with its wider and steeper shoulder should have a better (lower) Sebert's factor than the 6.5x55. But both are set to a generic 0.5 in QL, as they haven't bothered to adjust them for shoulder geometry. The result is that QL underestimates the efficiency benefits of the 6.5CM's case shape. Fix that, and there's just no difference between them. And of course to get them equal you had to hotrod the 6.5x55 by 11,000 PSI above SAAMI spec.

The 6.5x55 motto: "short action performance in a long action, brought to you by the design mistakes of the 19th century"

 

[Llama Bob]

if you like 6.5cm, you'll love 6cm

For targets, maybe. For hunting, no. There's nothing even vaguely like the 160gr protected point Weldcore in 6mm.

 

[taliv]

https://www.lehighdefense.com/all/243-high-velocity-controlled-chaos-copper-85gr-bullet

I’d say that bullet, which you could probably push over 3300 fps easily from a 6cm, would get an animals attention well enough.

 

[Llama Bob]

A .21 SD gimmick bullet with a G1 BC of .32 isn't exactly a substitute for a .33 SD bonded hunting soft with a G1 BC of .51.

I can't fathom why you'd pick that bullet as the exemplar for 6mm as a hunting caliber.

 

[<*(((><]

Seems like the Hornady 103gr ELD-X would be a great hunting round for a 6CM.

I haven't studied it out does the 6CM have any real world advantages over a 243 Win when the correct twist rate for the projectiles is considered on both?

 

[Llama Bob]

For smaller game it'd be OK. For the big stuff I wouldn't touch it. Cup & core, light, no lock ring - not good at all. 6mm really doesn't have big game bullets although it has plenty of medium game and varmint bullets. 6.5mm has a much wider range.

 

[H&Hhunter]

For targets, maybe. For hunting, no. There's nothing even vaguely like the 160gr protected point Weldcore in 6mm.

What velocity will the 6.5 CM push a 160 gr Weldcore?

 

[Llama Bob]

What velocity will the 6.5 CM push a 160 gr Weldcore?

My 6.5CM hunting rifle is a 28" 1885 high wall so it gains some from barrel length. I get 2810 ft/s with RL-23. You could get 2900 ft/s with RL-26 I suspect at the cost of some temp stability. Quick Load says I'd lose about 80 ft/s going to a 24" barrel.

 

[H&Hhunter]

My 6.5CM hunting rifle is a 28" 1885 high wall so it gains some from barrel length. I get 2810 ft/s with RL-23. You could get 2900 ft/s with RL-26 I suspect at the cost of some temp stability. Quick Load says I'd lose about 80 ft/s going to a 24" barrel.

Wait...WHAT? The max load listed in the Woodleigh book for a 160 Gr bullet in a .260 Rem (they don’t list the 6.5 CM is 2590)! You are claiming 2810 or 2900 out of a 6.5 CM with a 160 gr bullet? That is .264 Win velocity.

I am not buying it.

 

[<*(((><]

I would think one would be doing fantastic to get over 2,600fps with a 160gr. out of a 6.5CM case.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I would think one would be doing fantastic to get over 2,600fps with a 160gr. out of a 6.5CM case.

Fairy dust and miracles is what it would take.....

 

[Llama Bob]

Wait...WHAT? The max load listed in the Woodleigh book for a 160 Gr bullet in a .260 Rem (they don’t list the 6.5 CM is 2590)! You are claiming 2810 or 2900 out of a 6.5 CM with a 160 gr bullet? That is .264 Win velocity.

I am not buying it.

The only trick I'm using to get 2800-2900 is a) having a 28" barrel as is standard on a 1885 and b) loading to 65KPSI which isn't a big deal on an action and barrel shank that's used (and proofed) for the WSMs regularly.



What I'm shooting (or close enough - not quite right for my powder lot) is in green. The RL-26 load that I would have no concerns about shooting but don't use is in blue.

I can't see how what you do or don't "buy" is relevant to the facts of the matter. The facts just keep on being the facts. And the 6.5CM just keeps on getting it done and exposing what people don't know about ballistics

 

[MCMXI]

This past Saturday I shot a nice mule deer at 260 yards using a Federal factory load, specifically the .308 Win 150gr Trophy Copper that has an MV of 2,830fps from my 20" AR308 barrel and I just don't see the need to use a 6.5 CM. I'll be building a Proof barreled .308 Win 6lb hunting rifle this winter and I'm looking at the Barnes LRX 175gr bullet. It has a G1 BC of 0.508 and SD of 0.264 and it should do the job on any deer or elk inside 600 yards. I went out with a friend later in the afternoon and watched him take a nice mule deer at 300 yards with a 6.5 CM. It was cool to see the bullet pass through the buck and hit the dirt about 20 yards beyond. The buck went about 30 to 40 yards but was as dead as a door nail when we got to him. That was my first experience (vicariously) of hunting with a 6.5 mm bullet. It worked just fine on that deer but I'm still going to stick with .308 Win.

 

[H&Hhunter]

The only trick I'm using to get 2800-2900 is a) having a 28" barrel as is standard on a 1885 and b) loading to 65KPSI which isn't a big deal on an action and barrel shank that's used (and proofed) for the WSMs regularly.

View attachment 874101

What I'm shooting (or close enough - not quite right for my powder lot) is in green. The RL-26 load that I would have no concerns about shooting but don't use is in blue.

I can't see how what you do or don't "buy" is relevant to the facts of the matter. The facts just keep on being the facts. And the 6.5CM just keeps on getting it done and exposing what people don't know about ballistics

I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[taliv]

by that logic, i could load my 45acp to 35k psi, because just about very pistol available in 45acp is also available in 9mm and people shoot +p out of them all the time, right?

 

[Llama Bob]

by that logic, i could load my 45acp to 35k psi, because just about very pistol available in 45acp is also available in 9mm and people shoot +p out of them all the time, right?

Your statement is clueless on many levels. .45 ACP has increased case head thrust vs. 9mm due to cross section. 6.5CM has reduced case head thrust compared to a WSM for the same reason. And the failure mechanism on falling blocks is nothing like a recoil operated auto. The case is fully supported for the entire firing process.

What I'm doing is perfectly safe and functional. The fact that the two of you don't understand it doesn't change that in the least and is simply a statement about you.

 

[Llama Bob]

Oh, and to answer the question you actually asked, of course you can set up a 1911 to run .45s at 40KPSI. It's called .460 Rowland. There are issues of case head support, but those are unique to the 1911 action.

 

[Llama Bob]

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Which means what? I've shot plenty of them, they're safe, and what you think about them is really irrelevant.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Which means what? I've shot plenty of them, they're safe, and what you think about them is really irrelevant.

I don’t think you’re here for the friendly conversation and exchange of meaningful information Bob. You just like to argue.

 

[Llama Bob]

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to have a friendly conversation. Ask me what my 6.5CM load is, and I'll tell you and I'll tell you the things you need to know about it like MAP and what gun the velocity was from. Friendly as can be. But frankly when I get flack like "I am not buying it" from someone who provides no information on THEIR experience shooting 6.5CM out of falling block rifles, what exactly is there to converse about? I know what the load is, I know what performance I get because I own a chrono or two, and I know it's safe and the engineering of why, and as far as I can tell so far you've got nothing to add to that information other than what you are or aren't buying. If you actually have some meaningful info about 6.5CM in falling blocks (or anywhere else) that you want to exchange, by all means do so.

 

[dranrab]

I’ll believe it when I see it.

How dare you blaspheme the name of the almighty 6.5 Creedgod.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Oh, I'm perfectly happy to have a friendly conversation. Ask me what my 6.5CM load is, and I'll tell you and I'll tell you the things you need to know about it like MAP and what gun the velocity was from. Friendly as can be. But frankly when I get flack like "I am not buying it" from someone who provides no information on THEIR experience shooting 6.5CM out of falling block rifles, what exactly is there to converse about? I know what the load is, I know what performance I get because I own a chrono or two, and I know it's safe and the engineering of why, and as far as I can tell so far you've got nothing to add to that information other than what you are or aren't buying. If you actually have some meaningful info about 6.5CM in falling blocks (or anywhere else) that you want to exchange, by all means do so.

PM sent....

 

[horsemen61]

@Llama Bob id love to hear what your load is!