6.5 Creedmor more popular than .300 Blackout?

[horsey300]

Back to the original post, I sent some time with the Compass at the SHOT show last week and was impressed. It was interesting to me that it has a 3-position wing safety and yet the more expensive models don't. I have rifles chambered in .300 BLK and 6.5 CM and both have their uses. I'm not a fan of bolt action .300 BLK rifles with factory ammunition (case is a problem) or the 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting anything much larger than a coyote and dont understand why anyone would choose the 6.5 CM over a .308 Win for deer or elk. I put it down to a combination of factors including the 6.5 CM being the latest fad and the desire to use the latest fad regardless of suitability. The 6.5 CM offers no margins in real world hunting. Some go on and on about shot placement but that's disingenuous.

300 BLK - subsonic loads, full or semi-auto suppressed, close range PDW

6.5CM - long range steel/paper, antelope, coyotes, deer out to reasonable ranges with well-placed shots

The 6.5 offers more sectional density at a higher velocity than the .308 win, I've heard many times that a 180gr .30 cal is an acceptable elk load and if we exclude the copper bullets, then the 6.5 beats even the 190 gr bullets in sectional density with the 140 gr pills. I'm not going to start thumping on the b.c. argument here, so let's move to the velocity differences, the 6.5 cm can move the SD .287 at a conservative 2600 fps, (using accubonds for both loads) @400 yds, impact velocity is calculated at 1956 w/ 1189 ft-lbs in tow. The .308 pushing the 180 SD .271 at about the same velocity at 400 yds, yields a similar impact velocity at 1953 with 1525 ft-lbs in tow. The energy gain is impressive, but I don't like to rely on energy alone for decisions regarding usefulness in a cartridge. The .308 is not a violent beast to be feared by any means, but the 6.5 offers less recoil which can be advantageous for the smaller framed shooters or anyone for rapid follow ups. I completely applaud the all American .308 and am not discrediting it or trying to convert anyone, but I do think the 6.5 cartridges have a place in hunting the larger sized game. I AM glad to hear about the wing safety too!!! I'll have to keep an eye out for the compass around here!

 

[coloradokevin]

TC makes a bolt action rifle called the Compass. It comes standard with a threaded barrel, magazine, and MSRP of $399, so it's probably about $320-$330 which is a great bargain. It won Outdoor Life's Rifle of the Year in 2016.

I thought this would be a great rifle to compete with the Ruger American Ranch Rifle if TC came out with a model in .300 BO with a 16.5" barrel. Obviously it has worked well for Ruger who's RARR has become a favorite among .300 Blackout owners. It appears to be a great rifle and would be considerably cheaper then the Ruger.


So, along comes the Shot Show and they reveal that they are coming out with a new caliber for the TC Compass. It's not .300 Blackout, it's 6.5 Creedmor.


What the heck! I know that the 6.5 is gaining popularity but this surprised me. The .300 Blackout has established itself and already cemented it's popularity. They could have also come out with a .300 BO and 6.5 models. Is the 6.5 Creedmor more popular than the .300 Blackout? Apparently TC doesn't see enough interest in the .300 Blackout to make a .300 BO model.

When you're talking 6.5 Creedmor and .300 Blackout you're comparing apples and bacon... these two rounds have totally different purposes.

I'm a big fan of the 6.5 options. I don't have a 6.5 Creedmor myself, but my best rifle is chambered in .260 Remington (which is a very similar offering to the 6.5Creedmor). I also have a .300 Blk, which is used almost exclusively for shooting heavy subsonic loads at less than 100 yards. My .260 Remington is routinely used for shooting between 750-1500 yards. Definitely horses of a different color there.

Personal opinion? The .300 BLK would be much more popular than it currently is if suppressors weren't as regulated. It's main benefit is that you can suppress it very easily, and make it surprisingly quiet. But, suppressors are expensive and hard to obtain, so that doesn't entice the majority of shooters. On the other hand, the .260/6.5 offerings give you a gun that is every bit as accurate and capable of taking game as a .308 Win, with the added benefit of being able to reach longer distances than the .308, due to the high ballistic coefficient nature of these projectiles.

 

[Dr T]

I have seen a lot of 6.5 CMs. I have never seen a 300 BLK in real life. Since you mentioned the Ranch Rifle, where we ranch, the shots have the potential to go 300 yds (but 250 is now my personal limit). I don't think that the 300 BLK has legs that long. As the man said, it looks like a niche cartridge for SOF and SWAT. The 30-30 is more powerful.

 

[Ibmikey]

Everyone seems to favor one cartridge or another and I encourage them to pursue their interests just as I am doing with the 300, having fun shooting a heavier bullet in my AR's or up close hunting of hogs with the single shot or bolt action. I try to refrain from derogatory comments about others' choices in firearms or calibers because they obviously suit their own needs.
For me a short range hard hitting round (that big hog only went 60 yards before dying and that was with a simple125 gr bullet) that is adaptable to AR, Single Shot and Bolt action rifles is a win win situation, for others perhaps not.

 

[1stmarine]

The devil is very popular too yet many try to avoid it.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

FWIW the two of the next three rifles I want to pick up are in .300 Blackout and 6.5 CM! As coloradokevin says, comparing them is like comparing apples to bacon but I like both. Each would have a different role for me. I don't hunt to so I don't much care if the CM has the power to kill Elk cleanly, I would just kill paper or steel. I think the .300 Blackout would be the perfect HD/CQB round, perfect to keep by the bed to repel boarders.

 

[DownInTheDark]

I have never understood the 300 blackout. If I need to shoot a subsonic 220-230ish grain bullet I will grab a 45 acp. Or something super sonic that lets say 123 gr, and around 2200 fps, how about a 7.62x39? What am I missing here?

 

[MapMan]

Tried the 300BLK, subsonic & supersonic, precision hand loaded including creating own brass. If you like all that GREAT! Lots of hog hunting grounds have been closed to both .223 & 300BLK because too many get away just to waste away. Now I carry 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor and when I tire of looking at all that other .308 stuff I shoot that stuff too. Get with someone who won't tell you what "you should like best." Shoot the stuff and you decide what you "like best." "MapMan"

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I have never understood the 300 blackout. If I need to shoot a subsonic 220-230ish grain bullet I will grab a 45 acp. Or something super sonic that lets say 123 gr, and around 2200 fps, how about a 7.62x39? What am I missing here?

You're missing the fact that you're grabbing two different guns while the guy with the Blackout just needs one gun to do both of those things. Another thing to note is that while a 230gr .45 bullet @ 900 fps and a 220gr .30 cal bullet @ 900 fps have the same energy (basically) the .30 cal bullet has a vastly higher sectional density. I watched a test of the subsonic Blackout round vs a Level IIIa vest alongside a .45 ACP with 230gr ball. It was illuminating. Neither bullet penetrated the vest but the .30 cal bullet caused almost 12" of indentation/backface deformation in the clay! The backface deformation caused by the .45 was negligible. In other words being shot on the vest with the .45 would have stung, getting hit with the Blackout round would almost certainly have resulted in death to wearer.

Of course, you can swap out that round for a 110gr. In one test a high velocity round from the .300 Blackout was fired into four Level IIIa vests stacked in front of each other. It went through all four and through several water jugs behind them.

That is the point of a round like the .300 Blackout- it can fill many roles. I don't suppose you've watched the videos of Travis Haley putting rounds on steel with his .300 Blackout at 600 yards? With a regular Aimpoint no less!

 

[eastbank]

how high was he aiming and how long was the flight time. you had better have a good range finder and a dumb non moving target. my black out is a fine 100-125 yard deer and smaller game rifle and i use it in that role, but a rifle in 260-7mm08-308 built on the same model 7 rem action with same stock and barrel lenth would weight with in a few oz,s of my 300bk and offer more in range-energy, with the only extra expense being the powder as bullets and primers would be the same. if used with in it,s capabities the 300bk is a fine cartrige, but its not the best thing next to sliced bread. eastbank.

 

[Ibmikey]

Down in the dark Read the posts and your question will be answered. Obviously you have little or no experience with the calibers in question, this has not been a debate between subsonic and supersonic Blackout.

 

[eastbank]

i may be dumber than a box of rocks, but i have been reloading since 1958, have hunted all over the world in the last 40 years and have owned most of the popular rifle calibers and a few that are not popular and still only see the 300bk as a good round for swat and like, in a semi-full auto surpressed platform with heavy bullets and a 100-125 yrd deer round with the right bullet, if you put the bullet in the right place even a .22lr will kill deer size animals, i have killed more than a few on the farm in the buckwheat fields as a young man, but that doesn,t mean the .22lr is a good deer cartrige. no offence intended and none taken. eastbank.

 

[dh1633pm]

I like the comparison above, its like apples and bacon. The two don't compete. That's why I have one of each. One Model 7 AAC Blackout and one Savage LRP. Even the rifles I choose with the rounds are no comparison.

 

[Decoy80]

I have been thinking about the 300 blackout for the ease of aquiring brass as 223 brass to form it from is widely available. Cheap in comparison with 7.62x39 brass. At present I have been pulling bullets and powder from 7.62x39 cheap ammo and using the powder and bullets I choose to try. I find this method to be cheaper at current prices loading it rather than buying brass for it. Thanks for getting the discussion started Ive enjoyed reading this.

 

[Decoy80]

Sorry I didnt mean to post twice.

 

[CraigC]

I have never understood the 300 blackout. If I need to shoot a subsonic 220-230ish grain bullet I will grab a 45 acp. Or something super sonic that lets say 123 gr, and around 2200 fps, how about a 7.62x39? What am I missing here?

Ok, not only are you talking about two different rifles in place of one, show me a $400 .45ACP rifle that shoots sub-MOA.

The 7.62x39 is great if you're plinking with cheap Russian ammo. When you move beyond that, it's not quite as rosy. It simply doesn't do everything the .300AAC does and most of that is due to the odd bullet diameter.

 

[1stmarine]

Craig,
the 7.62x39 also comes in hybrid chambers/barrels. This means it can take 308 bullets just by replacing the expander button in the dies.
This allows it to shoot affordable budget ammo like steel as well as very nice and diverse reloads, including subsonic if that is required.
So basically, with quality brass and due to its capacity it can do all what the whisper does and a lot more.

 

[coloradokevin]

I have never understood the 300 blackout. If I need to shoot a subsonic 220-230ish grain bullet I will grab a 45 acp. Or something super sonic that lets say 123 gr, and around 2200 fps, how about a 7.62x39? What am I missing here?

Well, as I said above, I think the .300 BLK is a cartridge that will most appeal to those who want to shoot suppressed heavy subsonic loads. But, consider the following:

1) The .300 BLK can shoot subs very similar to the .45 ACP, but can also shoot supersonic loads that are pretty similar to the 7.62x39mm.
2) The .300BLK works well in an AR-15 platform, and uses regular AR-15 magazines.

 

[Dill]

Well, as I said above, I think the .300 BLK is a cartridge that will most appeal to those who want to shoot suppressed heavy subsonic loads. But, consider the following:

1) The .300 BLK can shoot subs very similar to the .45 ACP, but can also shoot supersonic loads that are pretty similar to the 7.62x39mm.
2) The .300BLK works well in an AR-15 platform, and uses regular AR-15 magazines.

and with 300BLK you get a reasonable performing .308 round in a small platform since it uses magnum pistol powder and was designed for a shorter barrel.

 

[1stmarine]

I am surprised people are still so confused about the capabilities and limitations of the whisper/blackout.
The round is great for subsonic work as originally designed and ideally requires dedicated systems and bullets that work in those low speed thresholds.
220gr match bullets are not cheap and less than ideal to do something consistently at sub speeds as there were not designed for that purpose.
So one will have to tune up the system, buy expensive ammo and/or bullets and most likely consider reloading.
The same characteristic that allows the bullets to fit in a AR magazine creates a problem for supersonic use that is the lack of case capacity.
The 7.62x39 in its most affordable versions (steel) will yield 100-200 fps additional speed that is substantial for what they are already slow for caliber rounds.
Due to its higher capacity the x39 will launch a 125gr bullet at the same speeds the whisper/blackout will launch a 110gr bullet. The x39 will also propel
a 150gr bullet at comparable speeds as whisper/blackout will propel a 125gr bullet. This is the situation with many affordable steel case ammunition but if one
is going to reload using premium brass one can achieve even better ballistic performance. One can reload x39 with 308 caliber bullets given one buys a suitable barrel.
In terms of versatility of use they are both pretty limited. These light for caliber slow rounds have been displaced from service by fast moving rounds with more
power, higher speeds and flatter trajectories. The thing that has saved the x39 as service round is the immense popularity of the AK47 providing cheap firearms and
ammunition very plentiful world wide and reliable in the most extreme conditions.
These type of calibers are great for short ranges but in tactical use are limited to poor penetration in hard barrier and longer ranges will lead to pin hole
wounding. All the reasons they have been displaced from service by major armies and why these type of ballistics will not be adopted moving forward.
If we are going to reload with specialty load lets pick up purpose specific components and when comparing to other calibers lets compare to premium
ammunition in those calibers that might be comparable or even lower cost of shooting, IMO with cost being a considerable factor for the average working man.
These things have been documented extensively. Not sure why they keep coming up but perhaps it is not easy to find the subjects one is looking for.
IMO the 6.5/260 and blackout should not be even discussed int he same thread that might lead to even more confusion for some.
If one wants to send heavy bad ass bullets designed to activate at low speeds the 458, beo or bushmaster are simple options that provide a heavy
blow at moderate ranges and work with the regular AR-15 magazines.
Also lets not disregard the 223 premium ammunition, some in 75-80 grains perform surprisingly well in short barrels smaller than 16" and at a distance
provide flatter trajectories, more energy and specially lethal speed.
Outside the AR/AK portfolio, if one wants to hunt wiht a very popular pistol round a 357 magnum lever carbine will also provide more power and killing
potential with the massive wounding of the 35 caliber. Buffalo bore, Grizzly, and others are good sources.

 

[HankC]

Someone may come up with a 6.5BO based on 223 brass! But I know I can't afford to buy 6.5 bullets anyway.

 

[LoonWulf]

Someone may come up with a 6.5BO based on 223 brass! But I know I can't afford to buy 6.5 bullets anyway.

Why when theres already the TCUs

I think its pretty well be covered as to what the black out is for, and what its good and not so good at....

Heres a question, why is the 6.5CM gaining popularity so quickly when the .260 went almost nowhere for the first few years after introduction?
Carry over from the 6.5 long range fad? Perecived improment over the similar .243, or 7mm-08?
Pure marketing of all things 6.5?

 

[Rickt300]

While I like just about anything that burns powder and will put together a 6.5 sooner than later it will most likely be a 6.5-06 AI. I mean if your going to shoot far what does a little extra velocity hurt? I could even see a 1-8 twist 264 Winchester Magnum in my future. It would fit right in with my 7MM RM and 280 AI!

 

[Llama Bob]

In the context it was designed for - namely the space and pressure constraints of the AR15 - the .300BLK makes perfect sense. It's very suitable for subsonic use, and has effective terminal ballistics in short barrels where many .223 loads struggle because their tumbling wounding mechanism requires higher velocity. Unlike many other "alternative" AR15 rounds it is correctly designed to respect the mechanics of the platform - there are no concerns about bolt breakage, requirements for custom components outside the barrel, limits on projectile choice due to shoulder location etc.

However, .300BLK is not a general purpose round. As soon as you move away from the design constraints of the AR15, it makes no sense.
- Case capacity is absurdly low
- OAL is too short
- Bolt thrust is way below what modern actions can handle
- Brass has to be made, or is expensive/scarce

In other words, too much is being left on the table and the benefits are all gone. With the .308 available as a good general purpose 30 caliber short action round (including with excellent reduced load options) the .300BLK is left out in the cold.

In contrast, the 6.5CM is in fact a good general purpose round. It has enough velocity, bullets suitable for antelope through elk, enough case capacity, and a shoulder and neck geometry that's suitable for a wide range of bullets. Given the level of interest and numerous manufacturers on board, it seems certain to be with us for a long time to come.

 

[bangswitch]

As mentioned before the two cartridges have such different uses that it is totally unfair to each in a comparison.

I have to agree totally. The BLK was developed from the start as an alternative to .223/5.56 in the AR15 platform, with the added priority of subsonic, suppressed use. At that it excels, but it does a lot of things well. It can digest bullets that vary in weight more than 100 grains from each other, and perform well with all of them, within its intended parameters, which is a medium-range rifle. It is superb below 200 yards, satisfactory to 300, and only there and beyond 300 does its small powder load start to limit its range and usefulness.

The 6.5 Creedmoor, on the other hand, is better compared to the .308 Winchester. It shoots flatter, stays supersonic further with bullets only a few grains less than the most popular .308 Win bullet weights. That it isn't even a possible fit in an AR15 makes it an unfair comparison to the 300BLK.
My three favorite rifles that I own are a semiauto .308 (M1A), a 300BLK AR, and a 6.5 Grendel AR. You could say the Grendel is the little brother of the Creedmoor, and if you have to compare a 6.5 to the BLK, use that one since it also chambers in the AR15 platform, although they still have much difference in design intent and performance. Even the smaller-cased (than either the .308Win or 6.5 Creedmoor) Grendel outshoots the .308Win.

As for cost per cartridge, the BLK has come way down since it went SAAMI. You can buy new brass (not once-fired and cut .223 brass) for about $.15/case. Cost per cartridge for reloaders, using high quality bullets (Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Nosler, etc) can be around $.45-$.50. Casting your own, or using once-fired reformed brass makes it cheaper, and with the relatively low pressures it operates at, the price gets cheaper quickly as you re-use the brass. I'm getting 5-7 reloads per case with reshaped LC 5.56 brass without seeing any split case necks or base ruptures.