6.5 Grendel, vs 243

[bangswitch]

I happened to have shot both yesterday, not really a fair comparison. The 243 has more case volume and higher operating pressures that helps it win a lot of contests performance wise. The 6.5 cm would be closer to "apples to apples".

I tend to agree with the better comparison being .243 vs 6mm CM. Case capacities and velocities with approx. equal weight bullets are similar for both rifles. .243 is basically a .308 case necked to .243/6mm. I guess it could have even been named 6mm-08, like its slightly bigger brother the 7mm-08 (which I prefer over them all). I built my Grendel because I wanted something with better legs in an AR-15 than .223 offered. For a bolt gun, I'd take either 7mm-08 or 6.5 CM.

 

[mshootnit]

If you want a neat little rifle in the sub-308 family category check out the Savage 99 in 300 Savage. Another cool

The two most accurate rifles I've owned in my life have been a .243 Tikka T3 and a Howa Mini in 6.5 Grendel. Both would print 1/2 MOA groups when the nut behind the trigger did his part. Day in and day out, I'd have to give the accuracy edge to the Grendel though. Boringly accurate.

But the real edge (and some of you are going to laugh, but go ahead...) is in felt recoil. No, the .243 isn't bad at all for a grown adult. BUT, the Grendel has to me, about 1/2 the felt recoil of the .243 while still cranking out impressive numbers downrange for all practical hunting purposes. We don't need 100 grain bullets that go 3000 fps. for 99% of the hunting we do. A 120,123 or 130-grain bullet going 2400-2500 out of the pipe is plenty, or should be with the right bullets. And if you can get "plenty" of oomph with recoil that anyone can cope with, that keeps you on target and keeps you from flinching, then why not take it?

I was pretty down on the Grendel after seeing questionable results on game a few years ago, but the buddy I sold mine to sold it back to me at a price I couldn't refuse, so I'm once again a Howa Mini Grendel owner, and I have a renewed interest in the round - particularly with finding the RIGHT hunting bullet for it. So I'll continue my search with the little gun, particularly because it is so obscenely accurate and easy to shoot. Doesn't hurt that the rifle weighs just 5 lbs. 9 oz. after I put it on a diet.

120 gr. @2400 fps has been recognized for years as being a marginal or limited combination for general use hunting. Especially in the plains. It has its place, stand or blind hunting where good shots inside of 150 yds are the norm.

 

[jmorris]

I'm actually a little curious about lighter bullets in the Grendel honestly I don't think I have seen anything monster and a 120 lb deer is about average here. So there's a little voice in my head that wonders what I could accomplish with a 100 grain bullet and an AR friendly cartridge.

I have tried a lot of different stuff on animals that size and almost anything can work. I started with killing things deader than lots of folks do and wandered to not killing them enough as I liked then went back and forth a bit.

In a trap a .22 long rifle is fine, with a bad shot a 50 BMG isn't enough, I think my favorite, on the weak end, is the 7mm BR with a 140 grain Partition. The most accurate groups I have fired at 100 and 200 yards were with the 6mm PPC but I haven't ever hunted anything with the round and likey wouldn't with the bullets I used unless it was a varmint.

I think weight matters somewhat but its not the end all, bullet construction matters as well and for some is more important than weight.

 

[Goosey]

120 gr. @2400 fps has been recognized for years as being a marginal or limited combination for general use hunting. Especially in the plains. It has its place, stand or blind hunting where good shots inside of 150 yds are the norm.

What about 117 grains at 2000 fps?

 

[Newtosavage]

100 gn Nosler BTs shoot very well out of my Grendel. Buck made it about 10 yards before it crashed.

Yea, they shot good out of mine too. But then, my Howa Mini has shot everything I've fed it.

 

[horsey300]

If you want a neat little rifle in the sub-308 family category check out the Savage 99 in 300 Savage. Another cool

120 gr. @2400 fps has been recognized for years as being a marginal or limited combination for general use hunting. Especially in the plains. It has its place, stand or blind hunting where good shots inside of 150 yds are the norm.

The sst sploders though.....they get it done! The 100 gr pills ain't so bad either, with a lil less velocity, for deer, we can afford to give up a lil s.d.

 

[OrangeCat]

I think weight matters somewhat but its not the end all, bullet construction matters as well and for some is more important than weight.

Agreed my usual is a swedish Mauser that dad bought cheap when I was a kid if I were going to get a new bolt action I have enough ammo that I would stick with that cartridge but I do have a soft spot for the AR in spite of it's limitations and was mostly having a passing thought.

Edit; I also love love love the sks but not enough to pay more than what an AR could be got for.

 

[jmorris]

Agreed my usual is a swedish Mauser that dad bought cheap when I was a kid if I were going to get a new bolt action I have enough ammo that I would stick with that cartridge but I do have a soft spot for the AR in spite of it's limitations and was mostly having a passing thought.

I like them as well, Mrs. Morris thinks it's because I can have as many as I want and think she can't tell they are not the same firearm.

I was just saying construction on a 55 grain .223 bullet at 3000 fps out of one upper is a bit more important than that of a 400+ grain one out of a .458 upper going much slower, on the same lower.

I enjoy banging steel and paper way out there with some of them but do prefer others that are less than ideal for that for getting meat.

 

[Larry Poho]

Here she Is. My new 6.5 Grendel side charger Sanders Armory 18 inch upper. Tooo much fun. Love this thing. only taken it out to 100 yds so far, but after a proper break-in, one word. Lets make it two. Tack driver. how about three: One ragged hole. Shoot, clean, shoot, clean shoot, clean first 12 rounds. I couldnt believe how it was putting the Hornady SST’s in there once I sighted it in during break-in rounds. took me 5 rounds to hit dead center, then one ragged hole. It was from a Caldwell Lead Sled AR rest, to see how it was firing. Recoil afterwards, once I took it off the rest, was surprisingly light for a 1000 yard shooter. Sorry for the dirty pics. i’ll clean it up soon.

 

[Larry Poho]

Oh BTW for those that want to know. The trigger is a Hipertouch, Hiperfire. Best trigger I have ever used. it isn’t cheap, but it is worth every penny. Scope is a Leupold VX3i -3.5x10x40 1 inch mounted with a Burris one piece quick release mount that I had laying around. I like American Defense, but it will be a plenty good for the light shooting Grendel. The modified S&W M&P lower is a great light weight lower. I will get new pins and a new buffer spring next to make it into a great hunter. https://www.hiperfire.com My trigger is the 24C, a competition trigger

 

[Larry Poho]

If you want a neat little rifle in the sub-308 family category check out the Savage 99 in 300 Savage. Another cool

120 gr. @2400 fps has been recognized for years as being a marginal or limited combination for general use hunting. Especially in the plains. It has its place, stand or blind hunting where good shots inside of 150 yds are the norm.

Some truth to what you have said. I respect your opinion, but as you said "recgonized for years”. Problem is that modern projectile development and the fact that the 6.5 boolit is so much loved by our planets atmosphere, that it has a B.C. advantage that has to be calculated by modern testing because it almost defies gravity and wind. Do keep in mind that after 600 yards, the Grendel begins to make the 308 Win. look for some more legs, while the Grendel just keeps on floating past it. Bill Alexander knew exactly what he was doing when he got involved with the Grendel Project. BUT the most amazing thing is it does all this in an AR-15 platform. Even the 243 needs an AR-10 platform. Anyone ever,ever see a 243 AR-10?

 

[mshootnit]

A 24 cal 105 gr. Scenar at 243 Win velocities will be flatter than a 130 gr. 6.5 Grendel @600 yds.

 

[Varminterror]

Anyone ever,ever see a 243 AR-10?

Yup. I’ve owned 3 myself, including one in 243AI, and I’ve built a half dozen 243win LFAR’s for others that I recall.

My most recent built LFAR is a 6 creed.

In fairness, nobody should be surprised when a cartridge with more than 30% more powder on board and a relatively heavy for caliber bullet out-performs a cartridge with a light for caliber bullet. Pretty rudimentary physics.

 

[LoonWulf]

Here she Is. My new 6.5 Grendel side charger Sanders Armory 18 inch upper. Tooo much fun. Love this thing. only taken it out to 100 yds so far, but after a proper break-in, one word. Lets make it two. Tack driver. how about three: One ragged hole. Shoot, clean, shoot, clean shoot, clean first 12 rounds. I couldnt believe how it was putting the Hornady SST’s in there once I sighted it in during break-in rounds. took me 5 rounds to hit dead center, then one ragged hole. It was from a Caldwell Lead Sled AR rest, to see how it was firing. Recoil afterwards,View attachment 920005 View attachment 920006 View attachment 920007 once I took it off the rest, was surprisingly light for a 1000 yard shooter. Sorry for the dirty pics. i’ll clean it up soon.

Good looking rig!

I shot quite a bit of hornady blk out of mine, and thats so far been the closest to my 123amax/sst reloads, should you need factory ammo at some point. This is from 3 different grendel uppers.

One of my long time friends actually came by and snagged my Grendel upper, but ive still got my 527. Love the little round, tho i would prefer a 6mm i think. At least for sheep and goats, i usually run heavier rounds for deer and pigs.

 

[troy fairweather]

Good looking rig!

I shot quite a bit of hornady blk out of mine, and thats so far been the closest to my 123amax/sst reloads, should you need factory ammo at some point. This is from 3 different grendel uppers.

One of my long time friends actually came by and snagged my Grendel upper, but ive still got my 527. Love the little round, tho i would prefer a 6mm i think. At least for sheep and goats, i usually run heavier rounds for deer and pigs.

Looks like hornady is releasing the 6mm arc in a few days, I'm really gonna want to build one lol. Still like to do a 6.5grendel tho maybe a 16"

 

[LoonWulf]

Looks like hornady is releasing the 6mm arc in a few days, I'm really gonna want to build one lol. Still like to do a 6.5grendel tho maybe a 16"

Yeah im waiting on user experience with the ARC, but if its decent ill probably build an UL ar upper, and may swap the barrel on my 527.
87gr Vmax will probably be the ticket for goats, and sheep.

 

[troy fairweather]

Yeah im waiting on user experience with the ARC, but if its decent ill probably build an UL ar upper, and may swap the barrel on my 527.
87gr Vmax will probably be the ticket for goats, and sheep.

Don't know if I'd go heavy or lw, story of my life lol. Think I'd use it for the 75-95 bullets.

 

[Varminterror]

Yeah im waiting on user experience with the ARC, but if its decent ill probably build an UL ar upper, and may swap the barrel on my 527.
87gr Vmax will probably be the ticket for goats, and sheep.

Don't know if I'd go heavy or lw, story of my life lol. Think I'd use it for the 75-95 bullets.

I’m going heavy for mine, but will get one for my son in a lightweight barrel, probably 20”.

I absolutely adore the 243LBC after almost 2 yrs with it. I wrung my hands over which 6mm Grendel variant to buy for a few years before jumping finally, and I’m excited to have a factory ammo option.

Factory ammo and my son’s pending deer rifle/upper is what ultimately settled the debate for me - sticking with the (faster) 243LBC, or converting to the 6ARC. I prefer the 243, but would like a factory ammo compatible rifle for my son, so he’ll get an ARC upper for his rifle, and if I’m gonna have one, I might as well have two. I ordered one more 243 LBC barrel until the 6 ARC barrels and ammo become available, but expect to convert over within a year or so. My interest is predominantly with the 105-110’s. The longer, larger case 243LBC would be nicer for lighter bullets - likely 150fps faster than the new ARC. But the long pills simply don’t fit in the LBC case at mag length - but will in the ARC case.

 

[troy fairweather]

I’m going heavy for mine, but will get one for my son in a lightweight barrel, probably 20”.

I absolutely adore the 243LBC after almost 2 yrs with it. I wrung my hands over which 6mm Grendel variant to buy for a few years before jumping finally, and I’m excited to have a factory ammo option.

Factory ammo and my son’s pending deer rifle/upper is what ultimately settled the debate for me - sticking with the (faster) 243LBC, or converting to the 6ARC. I prefer the 243, but would like a factory ammo compatible rifle for my son, so he’ll get an ARC upper for his rifle, and if I’m gonna have one, I might as well have two. I ordered one more 243 LBC barrel until the 6 ARC barrels and ammo become available, but expect to convert over within a year or so. My interest is predominantly with the 105-110’s. The longer, larger case 243LBC would be nicer for lighter bullets - likely 150fps faster than the new ARC. But the long pills simply don’t fit in the LBC case at mag length - but will in the ARC case.

Heavy is probably more sensible for me, I don't see me taking it hunting much if so I don't walk much anyways. I'd just old I can get a non threaded barrel to make life easier. I'd be very happy if it can push a 85 at 3k

 

[Varminterror]

I'd be very happy if it can push a 85 at 3k

I think you’d be very close in 6 ARC, but might not quite get there.

I’m not 100% sure it’s possible based on what I’ve seen in the LBC. I haven’t loaded the 85/87’s myself, but I used to chat a lot with a former Black Hole shooter when I first investigated the LBC - he pushed the 87’s to 2900-2950 in a 24” barrel. I think a guy could lean on it and get some extra speed, because I can push 105 Hybrids to 2850-2900 when I pour on the 8208 - BUT - that’s with a full size Grendel case in the 243LBC, larger than the ARC. Looking at the SAAMI sheet claiming 2700fps with a 108, I’d extrapolate from the 243LBC performance I know to be about 150fps faster... so if ~3000 is tops for the LBC case, I think asking it from the ARC case might be a bit too much. Also of note - all of those speeds are from polygonal rifled barrels, which are almost unilaterally faster than conventionally rifled tubes. I’m not so convinced I’d get within 50fps of the speeds I achieve with instead a conventional barrel. The kinetic energy pencils out, but if you’re hardlining 3,000, it MIGHT fall just short.

 

[Larry Poho]

The whole Idea of a 6.5 Grendel for me was an AR-15 platform. I have a 350 legend also in an Ar-15 platform, and 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm-o8, and a 7mm mag if I want to shoot a bolt. The 6mm just doesn’t do it for me. i messed with a 243 win for a few years and burnt up a good barrel. just not my cup of tea. The Grendel very easy to make accurate. and for me shot placement is the sport in hunting. Anyone can shoot a powder burning hunk of lead and kill something with it. I am at the point in my life where if I want to hit a 300 pound hog right behind the ear and drop him right there from 125 yards with pin point accuracy, that to me is a skilled hunt, and I have to be good at it. My bro in law always used a 30-06 on deer up north. I always used my 260, or a 44 mag lever gun. we both got our deer, but he destroyed a bunch of meat. I used less of my powder and lead, and carried a lighter rifle. As far as this new 6mm or a 224 valkyrie I have to wait and see. it’s always something new. Thats how they sell guns and ammo. Hey if a new 6mm floats your boat go for it. But I can’t see any use for it right now with the rifles I own. Sounds like the newest paper punch to me.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If you're hunting hogs, the Grendel will probably give you better penetration thanks to better SD. Sectional density + ballistic coefficient has been the 6.5 Secret Sauce for over a century.

I bought my 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8 SPC because my buddy touted the wonders of sectional density and penetration. Turns out, section density, doesn't have a whole lot to do with penetration as much as velocity and bullet construction and what hit inside the animal. I have had Grendel bullets penetrate deeper than than .308, 6.8 spc, and .243 when shooting the same hog and penetrate less than the same calibers on another. The whole sectional density benefit really only works for comparison when comparing bullets of the same construction hitting the exact same thing and at similar velocities.

In my view, .243 offers nothing significant over Grendel for hog hunting at typical (inside 200 yards) hunting distances, and vice versa.

 

[js8588]

I bought my 6.5 Grendel over the 6.8 SPC because my buddy touted the wonders of sectional density and penetration. Turns out, section density, doesn't have a whole lot to do with penetration as much as velocity and bullet construction and what hit inside the animal. I have had Grendel bullets penetrate deeper than than .308, 6.8 spc, and .243 when shooting the same hog and penetrate less than the same calibers on another. The whole sectional density benefit really only works for comparison when comparing bullets of the same construction hitting the exact same thing and at similar velocities.

In my view, .243 offers nothing significant over Grendel for hog hunting at typical (inside 200 yards) hunting distances, and vice versa.

I don't even care that you're technically disagreeing with me here. My only response is "senpai noticed me!"

 

[CraigC]

The whole sectional density benefit really only works for comparison when comparing bullets of the same construction hitting the exact same thing and at similar velocities.

I thought that was obvious. A heavy for caliber but lightly constructed bullet isn't going to penetrate as well as a much lighter solid copper.

 

[Newtosavage]

If you want a neat little rifle in the sub-308 family category check out the Savage 99 in 300 Savage. Another cool

120 gr. @2400 fps has been recognized for years as being a marginal or limited combination for general use hunting. Especially in the plains. It has its place, stand or blind hunting where good shots inside of 150 yds are the norm.

where do you get that information that shows it has been "recognized for years" and recognized by whom?

I know a lot of AR owners who would argue that 120 gr. doing 2400 is more than adequate for game under 200 lbs. and even larger if you listen to some of them.