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6.5 Swede Mauser and loading manuals

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by e rex, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. Clark

    Clark Member

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    PO Ackley failed to publish tests on the Swede. So I went out and bought a 94, 96, and 38 for testing.
     
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  2. e rex

    e rex Member

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    Clark, I'd be interested in hearing about your tests and conclusions.
     
  3. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Instead of a blow up test, I would be more interested in an endurance test. How many rounds till failure. P.O. Ackley's test are interesting, and at the same time, misleading. Is the measure of an action the amount of powder it takes to blow it up? Is that your number one goal, to chamber one over pressure round and see if you blow the rifle up?Tee hee, giggle, tee hee?

    I will say that won't make a very good military rifle. Military rifles are expected to function in weather world wide, be simple to operate, simple to dismount, meet a certain price point, weight point, and feed and extraction have to be perfect at all times in all weather. Ole Ackley was having fun blowing up actions, just like a juvenile kid blowing up stuffed animals, but you know, any fool can blow anything up given enough explosives. See the videos of those guys blowing Roman Temples up in Syria? Any intolerant fool can blow up a stone temple given enough dynamite.

    The guys who designed those actions and the militarizes that issued those actions understood that there were limits to action strength, and they were not interested in reaching the structural limits of their firearms. One reason why Soldiers are issued ammunition that is made to a certain pressure point. There was no desire to issue ammunition that would blow up the user. If you think about this, Armies have a difficult enough time keeping their Soldiers from getting killed, never mind deliberately issuing ammunition which would kill their serviceman.

    So while blowup tests are as fun, I think they are more infantile than informative. Which is what you would expect from a machinist. Ackley did not preform shear tests on lugs or receivers which would have been far more useful as measures of comparison than his non instrumented blow up tests. For a good comedy show act, Ackley should have assembled a toy store of stuffed animals, and blown them up. We all would have had a bunch of giggles out of that.

    Look Ma, I blew up the world, tee hee, giggle, tee hee.

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    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 11:14 AM
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  4. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    It was also P.O. Ackley who said of the Mannlicher Carcano "No army issues booby traps to its own troops."

    One contemporary said you might be better off with a Spanish Mauser (German made) than a Swede. The Swedes tended to SHOOT their rifles, the Latins didn't. Main fault he identified was rust under the stock line on rifles from the tropics.
     
  5. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    I agree. The attitudes of the WW2 generation towards our enemies arms was based on biases created about their combat performance. The Germans were wily, tough and lethal, all the way through. So the WW2 generation tended to have a high opinion about all guns German. The Italians realized soon, they got involved in the wrong war, with the wrong people, and generally, were not interested in fighting and dying. The WW2 generation thought them losers, and had the same attitude towards everything Italian. The WW2 generation frankly had racist attitudes towards the Japanese, loved them as much as a rattlesnake, wanted to exterminate them all, and because of Japanese fanaticism, thought it made sense the Japanese would arm their Soldiers with cast iron rifles. This piece of wisdom got around because a number of GI's picked up training rifles, made out of cast iron, put a service round in the things, and Kaboom!

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  6. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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  7. Clark

    Clark Member

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    http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf
    On page 358 we see the 270 max average load is 65 kpsi and proof loads to be between 87 kpsi and 93 kpsi.

    If we put that on the S/N graf of fatigue for steel that yields [end of elastic deformation and beginning of plastic deformation] at 122 ksi, then:
    [65 kpsi / 87 kpsi] [122 ksi] = 91 ksi -> ~1000 cycles on fatigue graph
    [65 kpsi / 93 kpsi] [122 ksi] = 85 ksi -> ~2000 cycles on fatigue graph

    If one were to work up a bolt action rifle to failure in one cycle, the bolt lugs deform on the bolt and the bolt lug abutments deform in the receiver at practically the same time.
    If I look at the bolt lug cross sectional area in shear in rifles normally chambered in 270; 98 Mauser, Win M70, Rem 700, Sav 110, [ or Mosin Nagant which is not] ect. [The Sav 110 is a tiny bit bigger] 0.43" x0.38" = 0.163 sq in per lug.
    If I look at the 1896 Swedish bolt: one lug is 0.1325 sq in and the other is 0.1925 sq in for an average of 0.1625 sq in.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017 at 12:03 PM
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  8. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Very interesting, good measurements. That fatigue curve is for 4130 steel. If you have one for a plain carbon, 30 point steel, such as used in the Swedish Mauser, take a look at the difference in fatigue lifetime. If you don't, take a look at Charpey impact tests, particularly in cold conditions, which is a good predictor of fatigue lifetime. Alloy steels take two to three times more foot lbs to shear at low temperature than plain carbon steels.

    Then, take into account the uncertainty of composition when dealing with antique, pre vacuum steel era steels, that Swedish Mauser does not look that good.
     
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  9. denton

    denton Member

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    All very informative. Thank you.

    IIRC, the Swedes were making better steel than the rest of the world back in the day. Swedish iron deposits had naturally occurring Manganese in them, and that greatly improved the hardenability of their steel. There were a couple of times the Germans had to swallow their pride and specify Swedish steel in their armaments. I've read that circa 1900, Swedish steel wasn't that far behind modern steels.

    Someone with more knowledge of metallurgy may be able to shed more light on this.
     
  10. Clark

    Clark Member

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    I have drilled and tapped ~ 100 Mausers.
    The only hard ones are Swedes.
    Yield strength is proportional to hardness.
     
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  11. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Everything you were quoting had to be written by a fan boy of antiques. Bessemer used Swedish iron in his first converters and darn near went bankrupt when other iron ore sources were used. However, the fact that Swedish iron ore lacks manganese is a non issue now, because of technological advancements in ore processing.

    I would like to see a metallurgical analysis of 1900ish Swedish action steel. I was able to find one on a 1916 German Mauser action, and it is garbage.

    Anyone who thinks that 1900 era plain carbon steels are not vastly inferior to modern steels ought to go on a knife forum and make that statement. Those guys live, breath steels, steel compositions, and steel performance. They will chew you up and spit out the bone shards.

    Looking forward from 1900, this radio was 58 years in the future:

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    Now what Radio stations did the Swedes listen to in 1900? What kind of radios did they use? Their manufacturing technology was equally primitive.
     

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