6.8 Spc

[TX65]

6.5 Grendel vs 6.8 Rem SPC

Many people have inquired for a comparison of the 6.5 Grendel vs the 6.8 Remington SPC. The following is a comparison of the 6.5 Grendel with a 108 grain Lapua Scenar bullet vs the 6.8 Rem SPC with a 115 match bullet. Both bullets are of similar design and construction from equal length barrels. Comparison is based on the format of data as presented by Remington for the 6.8 SPC based on velocity, terminal energy, short range trajectory and long range trajectory. Conclusions are left to the reader.

 

[Gabe]

Why did they use the Lapua instead of the 123 grain SMK for the Grendel test?

In any case the 6.8 is designed for CQB out of carbine barrels, match shooting was not a design criterion.

 

[TX65]

The data for the 6.8 Rem SPC is as published by Remington at http://www.remington.com. Remington chose to use a 24 inch barrel for their data publication. Therefore, the data was presented with both cartridges off a 24 inch barrel. Both the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 Rem SPC exhibit similar velocity when fired from shorter barrels (16 inch = 2650 fps).

The 6.5mm 108 Lapua and the 6.8mm 115 Sierra are both bullets of match HPBT design to give as close of a comparison as possible.

The 6.5 mm Lapua 123 Scenar could also be projected into a comparison if desired with it's .547 ballistic coefficient vs. the 6.8mm 115 Sierra with it's .340 ballistic coefficient. Also, since Lapua is manufacturing the 6.5 Grendel brass for Alexander Arms, it would be appropriate to use their factory match bullet rather then a Sierra.

Sierra does not offer a 123 Matchking (Only a 107,120,140,142 and 155 Matchking in 6.5mm)

 

[Lee F]

TX65,
Help me out here. It looks like sometime during 2004 uppers for AR's will be hitting the market in both of these calibers. Correct so far? It also appears that we are going to have a 6mm Remington verses .243 Winchester situation? Am I off track in believing that in the long term only one of these cartridges will make it? From everything I've read the Grendel is ballistically superior, but the buying public isn't often concerned with the facts (see above example).

I would like to believe that the better cartridge would "make it" but also wonder if the fact that Remington loads one and Lapua the other won't be one of the primary deciding factors. One thing is for sure, one of my AR's will be wearing an upper in these calibers. Thanks for any insights.

 

[TX65]

Hi Lee,

Alexander Arms has already been accepting orders from distributors and dealers for 6.5 Grendel Rifles and Uppers with first deliveries set for late February / early March following the SHOT show. At the same time, brass, loaded ammo, reloading dies and magazines will be shipping.

As a testament to Alexander Arms, the 50 Beowulf has had thousands of rifles / uppers produced for what is clearly a close quarters maximum power round. The 6.5 Grendel has much greater versitility for target shooters, hunters and professionals requring high accuracy and performance in the AR15 platform.

The initial release of the 6.5 Grendel will be for the AR15, but other rifle types are to come.

For what it is worth, the PPC has been around for 27 years with brass never being made by Winchester or Remington and yet, the PPC owns almost ever Benchrest world record to this day. Lapua has a long history and they have staying power in the global market, not to mention, they make probably what is considered by many to be the finest production brass available.

 

[Badger Arms]

Look, I like the idea but I don't see that there is any functional difference between the two. I'd prefer a 6mm, but it looks like 6.5 or 6.8 is the way it's going. I'd have to vote for the 6.5 if I had to, but I'd like a longer case with more case taper myself. Preferably so long you couldn't fit it into an M4 carbine... DRAT, that'd mean a new gun too!

 

[JWH]

Do you have a similar chart comparing the 6.5 in 123gr Lapua Scenar with the 6.8 in 115gr SMK?

John

 

[TX65]

As requested, here is the comparison for the 6.5mm Lapua 123 vs 6.8 Sierra 115. Again this would be for production ammunution in a production rifle, NOT a match rifle with handloads.

Match rifles with tighter throats and higher pressure loading levels return higher levels of performance.

 

[MLC]

Gabe:
I thought the 6.8 was designed to enhance lethality from CQB out to looong shots since the 5.56 wasn't cutting the mustard.
Ignoring all AWB 2004 ramifications, Does the 6.5 Grendel feed in a standard AR magazine,does it require new followers?
I'm sold on the concept but I need my rifle to have a reliable food source.

 

[TX65]

MLC,

The 6.5 Grendel feeds very reliably from AR15 magazines. The production magazines have the feed lips formed in the original stamping for the dimensions of the Grendel case (benefit a manufacturer has), but in my 3 + years of shooting the 6.5 PPC in an AR15 (thousands of rounds), my magazines were nothing more then standard 223 magazines with minor tuning of the feed lips. The minor tuning I did do took no more than a couple of minutes per magazine.

One of the benefits of what Alexander Arms has done is they have improved the entire system for the Grendel cartridge. As far as the rifle, all parts are standard AR15 .223 Remington except for the bolt assembly, barrel extension and of course the barrel.

A complete upper with 24 inch stainless steel barrel, composite free float hand guard, extended scope rail and a magazine will cost less then $1,000.00 from an Alexander Arms dealer. Additional uppers and complete rifles with shorter barrels will be forthcoming in 2004 as well.

Of course, whether someone is wanting a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC, the new production formed magazines for both cartridges are limited to 10 rounds for civilian sale given current laws. Military and Law Enforcement are able to get high capacity magazines.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

TX65,

To the best of your knowledge, will a "civillian" be able to look at the difference in the feed lips of the new 10 round clip (inculded with the purchase of a 6.5 Grendel upper) and be able to determine how and alter the feed lips on any of their current supply of AR mags? This is, OF COURSE, assuming that the modification does not effect the performance of the mag when loaded with .223. I.e. as long as the clip works with what is was made for, .223, one would not have "manufactured" any new high cap clips....

Thanks!!

 

[TX65]

WalkerTXRanger,

The key to tuning any magazine whether it be for the 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC or even .223 Remington is look at a magazine with a round loaded that does work and pay special attention to the position and angle of the cartridge.

Using that loaded working magazine as a model, take your other magazine and tune the feed lips to duplicate the angle and position of the cartridge to match your working magazine.

The regulation relating to magazines is they must continue to work in the RIFLE they were designed for. The best example that creates confusion for some people is as follows,

The Armalite AR10 uses modified M14 / M1A magazines which after modification work in the AR10. However, to remain legal, the magazine must continue to work in the M14/M1A rifle (the RIFLE they were designed for). If they don't continue to work in the M14 / M1A and only work in the AR10, they are no longer pre-ban M14 / M1A magazines, they are now new manufacture AR10 magazines and in violation of the law.

Back to the AR15, since you are working with an original pre-ban AR15 magazine and you are continuing to use it in an AR15 rifle, you are OK. It is important to remember that the AR15 has been produced for years in 7.62x39 as well as .223 Remington. I don't know where people get the idea the AR15 is an exclusive .223 Remington rifle.

Of course, when in doubt, a friendly phone call to your local BATF agent can set your mind at ease.

 

[Lee F]

TX65,
Thanks for the information. I think getting the most performance out of a platform is what's most important for me. The 6.5 Grendel seems to be the solution. Do you have links to sites with brass, dies, etc for sale? I've been to the Alexander Arms site already.

 

[TX65]

Hi Lee,

Just send me an email and I will be happy to direct you to a location when they begin accepting consumer orders. Right now, Distributors and Dealers are getting their stocking orders in place.

 

[Lee F]

I just compared the 6.8 SPC against the .243 and got a pleasant surprise.

http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp

Taking into account the larger bullet diameter this should make an excellent deer round at practical ranges. What I like most is .243 performance in the AR-15 frame. Why use a AR-10 for .243 if the AR-15 can duplicate it!

 

[JShirley]

Lee, this is already available in .243 WSSM in an AR package.

 

[Lee F]

JShirley,
Thanks for the heads up. Who makes a 243 WSSM Upper for the AR-15 frame? That's good news because all I knew about was the AR-10's configured that way.

 

[Harry Tuttle]

woomp there it iz

http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/Olympic/pcr-8mag.htm

Based on the PCR-8 model the PCR-8 MAG will be available in all the new Winchester Super Short Magnum cartridges. We do this by manufacturing a proprietary barrel extension, bolt, bolt carrier and upper receiver. These parts are already manufactured in quantity but because of insurance requirements we are waiting on SAAMI approval for the cartridges before we go into production.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

the 6.8 and 6.5 both provide greater magazine capacity and barrel life than the .243 WSSM.

As an aside, can a mini-14 be rebarrelled in 6.8?

 

[JShirley]

Lee,

Olympic Arms. It is true that mag capacity will be less, but I can already find .243 WSSM in my local gun store.
Ah- thanks, Harry.
John

 

[MLC]

This is the first I've seen from Remington on the 6.8 SPC:
Rem. match ammo
They also have it listed in the ballistics section .

 

[salty]

Check ASI out - they have been continually broadening their product selection over the past 3 years.

 

[Bigfoot]

Time travel can be fun. I liked the part where Arne said Sierra doesn't make a 123 SMK. Fast foreward three years and now they do make it, and it's a good un.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

I've been kicking around the idea of a 6.8 upper for about a year, but the price of ammo keeps me from buying. I also worry that the caliber won't catch on and I will end up with an expensive orphan. The same is true of 6.5.

For me the likelihood of the caliber sticking around for the long haul is more important than the ballistics. If one or the other becomes more widely available, I'll choose that one.

 

[BAT1]

6.5 Grendel for me

This round is very promising, as I love the AR platform. The 123 gr round has a B/C of .547. This upper from A/A will be my next buy. I love to hunt deer and and this is the round. The 6.8 is great to 200 yds, and can be belt fed for machine guns, [suppressing fire] but the 6.5 makes the ideal sniper/deer round. They are hitting water jugs at 800 yds with this round.