6.8 western rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Hoppy-tn, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    The magic is all gone. Received my American Rifleman magazine in the mail yesterday. There is a write up on the 270 Nosler. I expect other reviews will emphasis the following points.

    Short actions are the spawn of Satan, because short means lacking in comparison to a long action. Long action cartridges allow more powder space, and of course, more means more, especially when it comes to velocity. The 270 Nosler is therefore faster than the puny 6.8 Wimpy cartridge due to the increased powder charge.

    Yes, the 6.8 Wimpy was great in its day, but its day (all of three months) is over, and the cartridge is a has been.

    Marketing knows what you want, and what you want is speed. You don't care if the vehicle is comfortable, has air conditioning, or even lap belts. Just look at this 1963 Chevy test and remember an era when men were men, women were eye candy, and cars were all about fast.

    When the car is tumbled off Sand Mountain, just remember that lap belts were mandated in 1964, so while the car would survive, the people inside would not! Those were the days, why did we let them slip away?

    Decision At Daytona



    Except for the cup holders, nothing much has changed about people wanting performance over all.

    And what ever happened to those Weatherby cartridges and rifles? Were they not the end of history?

    U21sy9O.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021 at 10:04 PM
  2. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    I am a 270 WSM shooter/reloader. The 68 West was offered to allow target or long range "hunters" the ability to shoot really long bullets. The barrel has a faster twist, and the case is a little bumped back. That is it. Is it useful? Yes. Does it allow a person tag an animal they could not have gotten with a 270 WSM? No. Does it make people feel better about themselves inside? Yes.
     
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  3. High Plains

    High Plains Member

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    Nosler is a little late on the bandwagon for 270 revisions. Their version of the 270 Win has a faster twist (surprising no one) and their own 156 grain bullet. Well, well, well here are more small changes that don’t amount to a real difference.
    A 30/06 Springfield to a 300 Weatherby is a big change. A 22 Long to a 22-250 Rem is a big change.
     
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  4. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    The .277 bore is crippled by almost a hundred years of rifle production with the 1:10" varmint twist rate Winchester chose. That was back in the day when they really thought what their customers wanted to shoot was a badger, not an elk :D

    Yes, the new rifles are fast twist, and yes they've brought out a couple decent bullets. But they're so far behind the 7mm bore with good bullets from many manufacturers that the .277 will never catch up and with the two bores only .007 apart there's no reason to get a .277.

    The 7mm WSM and 28 Nosler offer excellent western big game performance on both action sizes in well designed modern cartridges. If you don't mind the extra recoil the .300 WSM offers the 200gr Federal Terminal Ascent which is probably the best thin skinned non-dangerous game bullet in the world right now.
     
  5. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    27 Nosler is on an ultra-magnum case. While I think buying a .277 bore for general hunting is a very obvious mistake when you can just buy a 7mm instead, there is a huge difference between a .270 Winchester and a 27 Nosler.
     
  6. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    @Slamfire makes a great analogy with cars. In the 1967-1972 pinnacle of the muscle car era, designers were running the show, producing ever more powerful vehicles that had no practical use, and were effectively death-traps. But people loved them, though they didn't buy vast numbers of them. There may not have been many Hemi 'Cudas made, but they garnered a lot of organic press and free advertising for the Mopar franchise.

    There are very few people capable of using the "advantages " of short fat, faster twist .277 caliber set ups. But the 6.5 Creedmoor sold a ridiculous number of new rifles to people who were also not skilled enough to exploit the "advantages" that the cartridge afforded. The 6.5 Creedmoor offered consumers nothing that the 125 year old 6.5x55 hadn't given them, but finding a modern rifle chambered in 6.5x55 was neither easy not cheap. The 6.5 Creedmoor fad gave consumers $300 MOA rifles delivering 6.5 x55 ballistics, so by no means some sort of "scam".

    The vast and overwhelming majority of the hunting public will not benefit from the "advantages" of the new 277s because they lack the skills to make kills at distances beyond those comfortably afforded by the venerable 270 Win. But they may well buy them anyway. And the purpose of a business is to make money.
     
  7. blue32

    blue32 Member

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    I recall seeing a few boxes at Academy but dont remember seeing the rifles. The specs look pretty cool on this cartridge. If you want it just because I say grab it and all the components you can. Must be fun living out west. Still waiting on that Winchester Eastern...

    IMG_2876.JPG
     
  8. horsey300

    horsey300 Member

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    The 7 mm shooting times easterner would be a good fit for that terrain! Too bad flat point 7mm pills aren't easy to find anymore....
     
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  9. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    This is nonsensical on several levels. First off, the 6.5CM succeeded because it achieved the same velocities as a 6.5x55, but did it in a short action instead of a long (or ancient Mauser intermediate) action, with a 1:8" twist instead of 1:9" or 1:220mm and did it with less recoil, less brass stretch, longer barrel life, and better accuracy. Exterior ballistics is not the only thing that matters. There were new made 6.5x55 rifles at many times before the 6.5CM, but they were undesirable because of twist and size.

    Second, any western hunter can take advantage of improved exterior ballistics. The enemy of long distance hunting is unknown wind. You're often taking shots that pass tens if not hundreds of feet above the ground over concave terrain, and as anyone who has flown a balloon can tell you the wind is not the same at all elevations. There are no wind flags up there to help you. If you do the math, you realize the limit on how far you can shoot quickly becomes not the size group you can shoot, but how much you don't know about the wind. The lower drag your projectile is, and the faster you launch it, the less it is affected by wind at all distances. The difference between a lackluster cartridge and bullet and a great one can easily be 2:1 at all distances. In western type hunting both the worst and best shots can easily benefit from a 2x reduction in their wind drift.
     
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  10. High Plains

    High Plains Member

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    I couldn’t have said it better.
    Hunting on a windy day is tough. I can only remember one long shot when hunting on a windy day. The 10-15mph wind was in my face so I didn’t have to do deal with the bullet being pushed way off. In nearly the same field a few seasons before the wind was from the East and the West, depending on when you looked, and there was some freezing rain. Oh joy!
     
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  11. jeff-10

    jeff-10 Member

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    Not including the various AR calibers, I think for relatively new cartridges only the 6.5 CM and 300 WSM have real staying power as commonly used big game rounds. Of course people will be playing around with 325 WSM, 8mm Rem Mag, 7mm STW, 338 Federal and 6.8 Western for the next hundred years.
     
  12. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    1907 .351 Win. That is the Easterner
     
  13. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    What you lack in logic and civility, you do not compensate for with consistency.

    Your obsession with the idea that, at most, a half inch of bolt throw and a few ounces of weight, somehow constitutes a major improvement over a standard length action is well documented. But contrary to Goebbels’ assertion, it’s constant retelling does not make it any truer. By the way, do look up the Mauser 96 twist rate. You are wrong.

    And, as is usual given your incivility, you have missed the point, or chosen to ignore it because the facts don’t fit your tawdry narrative. “Any Western hunter” cannot take advantage of the marginally improved ballistics of the short, fat, dumpy 270s. And that is because those advantages occur at distances at which the vast and overwhelming majority of hunters cannot achieve reliable kills. While you may claim to drop elk regularly at 700 odd yards or so, in the world outside the Internet, the number of people that can make ethical kills beyond 300 yards is tiny. The fact is that the 270 Win already provides ballistics in excess of the abilities of the vast and overwhelming majority of hunters and that the paltry advantages of a short action over a standard action may be relevant to a highly competitive F Class target shooter but are utterly irrelevant to the vast and overwhelming majority of hunters.

    You are of course welcome to your opinions, however ill formed, but if you cannot express them in a civil manner, you cannot expect to have them to be treated with anything less than the contempt they deserve.
     
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  14. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    Anyone who spends any time with a ballistic calculator will see that I'm correct and you're wrong. Reducing wind deflection is VERY useful at "normal" hunting distances. And it's easy to see why shorter, lighter handier rifles are preferred. Anyone who has spent time hunting the canyons of the west will understand both points quite clearly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021 at 4:37 PM
  15. cdb1

    cdb1 Member

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    I’d be happy with a .270 Winchester having a fast twist barrel.
     
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  16. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    That fixes a lot of the issues. The case efficiency and capacity improvements aren't as important.
     
  17. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    As I Western hunter, I can only say that your hubris appears more important to you than your integrity. Good day.
     
  18. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    Ah yes, pointing out basic facts about how rifle ballistics work requires moaning about "integrity" :D

    Facts are facts, and the facts are on my side. Wind matters, and faster moving and higher-BC bullets buck the wind better. That's just the way it works.
     
  19. DocRock

    DocRock Member

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    Not at the distances that the vast and overwhelming majority of hunters can make ethical kills. That’s the fact you keep ignoring.
     
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  20. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    Ive been on both sides of the particular argument more than once...(what can I say I enjoy a good argument).

    So while not picking sides this time, I do want to point out that ANYONE can benefit from any ballistic advantage.
    Reducing the controllable variables, even a little, stacks the tables in favor of the shooter.
     
  21. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    We are in total agreement about the shooting capabilities of the “average” hunter and ethical distances. And there are a couple of points I would like to re emphasize.

    How are hunters measuring the distance from themselves and the game they are shooting?. Modern technology has brought affordable and portable range finders, is anyone using them in the field before they shoot? The further the distance, the greater the bullet drop.The greater the bullet, the more critical the correct elevation estimate, and whether the rifle is actually zero's for that range.

    I only have my 308 Win trajectories memorized, but from 100 yards, I would go 2 MOA to two hundred yards, then add on 3 MOA for a 300 yard zero. So my bullet is dropping four inches at 200 yards, and 6 inches at 300 yards. And then, going from 300 yards to 500 yards is 8 more MOA, or 40 inches of drop. That is a lot. From 300 to 600 is 12 MOA, which is 72 inches of drop. From 500 to 600 yards the bullet is dropping 32 inches and things don’t get better as the distance grows.

    Before I took this rifle to CMP Talladega with its newly attached scope and I used a chunk of pallet to extend the trigger pull distance on the stock. That black spot is a nail hole from the original pallet.

    4V6D74N.jpg

    I wanted to check that my scope was perpendicular to the bore, and that scope was a ¼ MOA clicks. The scope was not ¼ click, based on this and actual shooting at Talladega, the thing is .375 MOA per click. This is something you have to verify by shooting the thing on paper.

    rg3ALee.jpg


    I have been told by buds with their super flat shooting cartridges that they need 31 MOA from 100 yards to 1000 yards. It is my recollection that I needed around 24 MOA or more, to go from 600 yards to 1000 yards with a 308 Win, which is about 240 inches of drop from 600 to 1000. That is twenty feet of drop for 400 yards of distance. Added from 100 yards, there is about 30 feet of drop for a 308 Win going from 100 to 1000 yards. Now I may have made some math errors, but the point is, these ridiculous distances promoted in these product roll outs assume the shooter has perfect range estimates, and, has zero’s at the distances he will be shooting. And I am quite sure, none of these assumptions are true.

    Book values will more or less get you on paper at distance, but it ain’t always going to happen. The black at 600 yards is 36 inches, at 1000 it is 44 inches. That corresponds to a lot of an animal. I consider the lethal zone of big animals to be pie pan in size, not 36 inches or 44 inches of distance. It is sure hubris to think the first shot out of a rifle will hit a pie pan at 700 or more yards, because you have book value elevation values. Experienced shooters frequently change sights, buy new toys, etc, and they will be on paper at 600 and 1000 yards with a first shot most of the time. New shooters, it can be gruesome. Many times we have clustered behind a new shooter, or a Marksman level shooter at distance, trying to see the bullet trace and determine if the bullet is going left, or right, or way in front of the berm.

    And, people mess up their elevation adjustments. I recall one 1000 yard match I shot in at Camp Perry, I had been using my M1a (MOA clicks with a ½ MOA aperture) for two weeks, and got on a scratch 1000 yard team. I rolled on the 1000 yard elevation on the Warner rear sight of my match rifle, but I forgot the Warner sights were ¼ MOA, not MOA, and so my first sighting shots probably hit between the 300 and 200 yard line!

    Book values are only good for getting on paper with an 8 square foot target, or a 10 foot square target. Only extraordinary luck will get the shooter in the ten ring of the 2 MOA NRA target, first shot, with a non zero’d rifle beyond 300 yards. And who has a range with 400, 500, 600, 700. 800 yard targets to establish zero’s?

    And then, another assumption is that the bullet acts as the manufacturer claims it will. I have already discussed bullet tumbling. That was a surprise. You only find that out by shooting on paper at distance. As for ballistic coefficients, I came to the conclusion that extremely high ballistic coefficients are more advertizing than reality. It is in the manufacturer’s financial interest to bump up their numbers. I saw this with the introduction of every new wonder bullet, someone would buy the things, claim great things on the first outing, but later, would be back to same old, same old. Usually the new bullet was better in some aspect, but not as revolutionary as claimed, and often turned out to be jump sensitive. So three matches in, the bullets were all over the place on target. It is true that sub 30 caliber bullets have much higher ballistic coefficients than what I was using in my 308 Win, but, claims of 0.505 versus 0.460, I never saw the difference. And, you got to push the bullet to get the advantage claimed, and that may not happen. I was pushing my 150 grain 270 Win bullets to the in print velocity claims, and getting blown primers. Velocity claims are as optimistic as the coefficient claims.

    And then, even with a range finder, you don't know the bullet drift at distance. Rifle shooting matches, you get a sighter period, sometimes the shooter uses almost his entire shooting time trying to hit the target, never mind get in the middle. Hunters don't get sighter shots, the first shot, and the first hit, are what counts. It is hubris to claim that a hunter is always going to hit a pie pan sized target first time, every time, out to 700 yards.

    The G&A article I read claimed that the ballistic coefficient of these heavy 277 bullets kept the velocity up enough that the bullets would expand at 700 yards. But, offered no proof of this claim. The author had to have been given calculated values provided by Winchester. And I am going to claim Winchester, probably used calculated 700 yard values based on 300 yard trajectories. I am quite certain Winchester has not set up blocks of ballistic gelatin at 700 yards and tested whether to see if their bullets expanded at that distance. Modern cup and core bullets do not expand when the velocities drop to 1800 fps, so these long range hunters are using the equivalent of FMJ bullets on game, which is unethical. Just poking a small hole in an animal, and having it run off to die a suffering death, is unethical. Metal gongs, paper targets don’t feel pain. Animals do feel pain, and experience fear. I am sure the long range types don’t care and treat animals as no different from inanimate targets.
     
  22. mokin

    mokin Member

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    ^ That would be an eye opener for sure. Not only the amount of gelatin they would have to set up at 700 yards, but the actual results.
     
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  23. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Think of it this way, what costs more, performing a test, or paying some gunwriter $400 to pontificate about theoretical and philosophical concepts? Depris, on this website, stated gunwriters get $400 for the articles they write. Any gunwriter that gets a paid hunting experience is deeply indebted to the corporation providing the experience, and so, is expected to be very enthusiastic about the product being rolled out! There is no doubt in my mind that products are developed on shoe string budgets, rushed to market, introduced to the public with glowing reviews by sock puppet gun writers, whose articles are based on the research of the marketing division. And this has been the business model for more than a century.

    Readers have been trained to be very uncritical and most believe anything in print. What you are reading is advertising. Magazines create articles so you will look at the ads. Magazines make their profit on advertisements, subscriptions are held artificially low, your subscription is more or less, "earnest money". The articles themselves are integrated advertising, with all sorts of product placements. No one should expect any objectivity to the things at all

    You might ask, why would anyone write an article for $400, surely there is no profit in the time, effort, and materials spent?. Call it brand promotion, brand awareness. All the time people are subjecting themselves to humiliating situations on TV just so they can have national attention for an hour, and promote, "their brand".

    .
     
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  24. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    You are again wrong.

    Here's an example of how horizontal spread grows with a 1.5MOA hold (consistent with a not-special rifle/optic and shooter shooting off a ruck) and a plus or minus 5MPH wind call error, which is very possible over concave terrain:

    upload_2021-6-12_15-56-27.png

    The regular rifle here could be something like a .30-06 with a 150gr partition or a .270 Win with a 130gr partition, and the superior setup say a 28 Nosler shooting a 155gr Terminal Ascent. These two rifles are the same size and weight but of course the 28 Nosler is a superior cartridge and the Terminal Ascent is a superior projectile. Notice that shooting the superior setup at 400 yards is similar to shooting the inferior one at 300 yards. In other words, at normal western hunting distances a superior rifle and cartridge can easily buy the equivalent of being 100 yards closer in for a normal, nothing special hunter shooting at reasonable distances under reasonable conditions.

    If we translate this to a 12" wide vital area on an elk, we can see that our nothing-special shooter is ethical out to just over 300y on the top setup and just over 400y on the bottom setup. That's a very practical difference.

    Bucking the wind matters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2021 at 6:01 PM
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  25. Llama Bob

    Llama Bob Member

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    Yes, people started doing this years ago.

    While there are very few shooting circumstances where a 700y shot is ethical, the bullets do in fact give correct terminal performance at those distances. The way you test it is simply to down-load and shoot a gel block close to you. The ballistic coefficients are measured by Doppler radar now and the bullet forms are very similar to the G7 ballistic exemplar so it's easy to know with very little error what impact velocity will be at any distance.
     
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