7.62 Tokarev

[psyshack]

My CZ-52 never jams. Has a very good trigger and will break clay's on a 100 yard berm off hand. Winchester Metric Ammo reloads very good.

 

[jj1962hemi]

http://gun-deals.com/displaydeal.php?dealid=10586


I have a TTC (Polish) that I really like and was thinking about this CZ-52, only because NIB is so uncommon. I had a CZ-70 I didn't like (.32 ACP), but it was built like a tank!

It seems that this cartridge is screaming for more JHP/type ammo. Like the357 SIG, I assume there are few FTF issues with a necked-down round.

 

[PabloJ]

........ will break clay's on a 100 yard berm off hand.

You must be a cyborg.

 

[JShirley]

the 7.62x25mm will go through someone easily

As someone else mentioned, high velocity expanding rounds expand better than lower velocity expanding rounds.

The basic round, with the right ammunition, is fine. The real problem is that there aren't good so-called "fighting handguns" for it. I'd carry a Glock 17 in 7.62x25mm very readily.

John

 

[Robbins290]

i would love to see a modern combat pistol in 7.62x25. its my round of choice. good woods round. i carry my cz52 hiking all the time

 

[7.62 Nato]

i would love to see a modern combat pistol in 7.62x25. its my round of choice. good woods round. i carry my cz52 hiking all the time

I would like to see that but really don't expect to see it happen. I'd LOVE a 7.62x25 Witness, or CZ. About the closest modern "equivelant" may be the .357 SIG round and it's available in many modern handguns. I think if it was offered in matching carbines it would really take off more.

 

[JShirley]

I really hoped the 9x23mm Winchester would be better received- especially when WWB could be had for the same price in x23 as x19mm! And the WWB JSP actually went fast enough to expand, too!

Anyway, when I get around to making my own firearms, I'll be sure to make a nice SBR or AOW in 7.62x25mm, with a 7-10" barrel.

John

 

[PabloJ]

For 7,62x25 to take off it would have to be adopted by military & police establishments of high stature and gun gurus would have to make numerous good comments about the firearm in question. Without these ingredients the "dream" will not be realized. This kind of approach does not work on me because I do not care what military & police use and what gun writers put in print but it works on most gun buyers out there.

 

[tahunua001]

almost all tokarev you find nowadays is steel cased surplus with a little brass cased here and there. when I sold my AK I traded my brother all of my 7.62x39 for all of his 7.62x25 and bought single shot chamber adapters for an enfield and mosin nagant. they are a really fun plinking round and fairly accurate. however 100% of the tokarev ammo out there is ball ammo. even though it does have a decent velocity, an 85 grain FMJ bullet is not going to cause a lot of trauma that is necessary in a self defense round. if you are able to get your hands on some of the brass cased tok ammo out there then you may be able to find very light hunting bullets in the 80-100gr range that would make it a very effective self defense round if you are up to reloading. the main problem is finding the proper diameter ammo. every reloading manual I've looked at that has data for 30 tok has it listed anywhere from .308-.312 diameter bullets so you need to find the diameter of your barrel before you start looking for reloading components.

 

[WardenWolf]

*facepalm* Tahuna001, all of this has been addressed previously. Please read before posting.

The .311 / .312 diameter bullets will be more correct. All Russian-designed .30's are .311. However, the difference is so minor that you can shoot .308 diameter bullets through it with no measurable loss of accuracy. It doesn't matter. Put the best bullet in it you can find, and it will work.

 

[GBExpat]

In defense of "tahunua001"'s post.

I often do not take the time to read thru 30+ posts before posting a response ... I just post a response to the OP's initial inquiry and move along.

 

[tahunua001]

sorry, my main forum is down so I'm struggling through my ADHD hardcore today. sorry if I wasted peoples time... though in my defense...

I did TRY to add personal input

 

[Clark]

JShirley

I really hoped the 9x23mm Winchester would be better received- especially when WWB could be had for the same price in x23 as x19mm! And the WWB JSP actually went fast enough to expand, too!

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

a) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 7.62x25mm with long brass life is "10 gr Power Pistol, S&B brass [not Starline], 1.316", 110 gr HNDY FMJ"
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

b) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 9x19mm is " 11 gr Power Pistol, 158 gr XTP, 1.169". [Any brass will do]
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

c) The most power I can get out of a Tokarev with 9x23mm is 16 gr Power Pistol, 158 gr XTP, 1.35", Win 9x23mm brass" [Not Starline]
Recoil is horrific, making this impractical.

What does it all mean?
Way more power can be had from the 9x19mm than can be dealt with given the slide mass, the recoil spring force, and the distance of slide movement with respect to the frame. [even though ~ half the momentum goes into moving the shooter's hand]
So there can be no real practical gains from switching to 9x23mm.
Maybe gains showing off over a chronograph.

Here is a Tokarev that I has a 308 Parker Hale sniper barrel that I welded a Tokarev link and chambered with 7.62x25mm.
It can show off over a chrono or show off with 100 yard groups.
But it is not practical.

 

[JShirley]

Clark, I'm really not sure what your point is. I don't see 7.62x25mm loads that are in the 124 grain @ 1500 fps with controllable recoil area that was the 9x23mm Winchester's strong suit. Posting your dangerous handloads proves nothing other than I want to be at least several lanes away if we're both shooting.

So there can be no real practical gains from switching to 9x23mm

Okay, fine. Tell all the .357 Magnum owners out there that they're idiots, and their caliber serves no purpose. ...since the 9x23mm is almost identical in performance to one of the most popular .357 loads (125-grain .35" JHP at 1500 fps). The 9x23mm Winchester allowed shooters to "make major" in a cartridge designed to handle the pressure levels with less recoil than other Major power factor cartridges. Just because YOU don't understand it, doesn't mean others don't.



John

 

[Clark]

JShirley

Clark, I'm really not sure what your point is.

Recoil.

I can make the majors with my 380.
158 gr 1187 fps. I have been posting that load and that test datum on THR for the better part of a decade.
But the recoil is brutal.

I have the 9x23mm reamer and a number of 9x23mm pistols. There is nothing practical it can do that my 9x19mm cannot.

Just like why the 45 Win Mag has nothing over the hand loaded 45acp.
Unless one is shooting a massive desert Eagle with monster springs, the 45acp can be loaded to more than the slide mass and recoil spring can control.
Remainder recoil energy goes into the slide slamming into the frame.
That is not good for the pistol nor my hand.


Again, recoil.

My father sold a math derivation of parabolic piston taper in a hydraulic cylinder for constant force during recoil to Rock Island Arsenal. Basically what he used on the M55, M110, M107, and XM-70 designs.
He used to ask me when I was going to put a hydraulic cylinder in a hand gun.
I have not so far done that.
I have put 48 pound triple recoil springs in a Glock 19. That makes the slide move so fast that I need double mag springs and a NY trigger to keep up. That is still not half as much recoil spring as hot 9mm needs.

 

[JShirley]

Won't a 9x19mm loaded to 9x23mm ballistics have both more recoil and more pressure?

 

[Clark]

Less recoil, more pressure.

The problem is that recoil usually is the limit before pressure it the limit.

C26000 brass (cartridge brass) Temper - H06 Tensile yield strength - 65,300 psi
Made in different cartridge shapes, that limits chamber pressure to something less than 85,000 psi.
The 9mm case head with a .190" feed ramp intrusion cannot do 85kpsi, but can do the better part of it.

 

[GBExpat]

You're probably right on the Hornady 90gr., I was just thinking 85gr. Haven't loaded them in awhile. I was close, though!

SDM, your memory is vindicated ... I located some 86gr .308 Hornady XTPs at Natchez.

While their price is good ($14.19/100, IIRC) I am hesitating to buy any because of their shipping rate that starts at over $17.00 for UPS Ground.

 

[firesky101]

BTW Clark,
What recoil springs do you use in your 9x23 Tokarev. I have been meaning to ask, as you are the reason I built my 9x23 Tok. I do not push the handloads though. Standard power 9x23 is enough for me, but I get a lot of slide hitting the stops.

 

[Clark]

I mostly use the stock Tokarev Springs. If I have one Wolff spring, it is the same anyway.

I have one Tokarev slide with extreme mods for twin external guide rods, but that is not ready for prime time.

 

[Jaymo]

Take a .327 Federal, and jack the velocity up to 1500-1700 fps (depending on ammo and Bbl length), and you have a 7.62x25 Tokarev.
Kinda loud, but a pussycat to shoot.

Hondo60, IIRC, Lbs came to signify pounds due to the roman Libra.
But, I could be wrong.

 

[bubba15301]

chronograghed surplusammo thru a cz52 -85 grain bullet -1600 fps-

 

[Jaymo]

.30 carbine-light.

 

[Blackfox893]

For me it is currently between 9x18 Makarov and 7.62 Tokarev, but because i have seen a tokarev mangle a piece of ballistic gel I really, really have fallen in love with it. I see the loud blast of the gun as useful as it will attract attention in case I miss, and get a better chance of someone seeing the thug who tried to pilfer from me. Overpenetration is less of a concern to me as I would be using expanding bullets.

 

[WardenWolf]

You can get a bushing compensator for the Tokarev which reduces muzzle flip, but in my opinion it doesn't matter because the Tokarev's recoil is perfectly matched with its grip angle. The gun settles right back on target after a shot. One thing to remember about a Tokarev is its size. It is effectively identical in size to a Combat Commander. It's not the easiest thing to conceal, though any good 1911 holster will fit it just fine. Adding the bushing compensator brings its length up to a bit longer than a 1911 Government.

I own 3 9x18 guns as well, and carry my P-64. The 9x18 round is okay, but it's no Tokarev. It'll do the job, though a more powerful round is always better.