7.62 X 25
- Thread starter gunny1022
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Picknlittle
Member
I've never seen a Tokorev (sp?) carbine, but I understand the 7.62x25 was a rifle round before the advent of the cz52.
max popenker
Member
i believe this was the ammo loaded for Czechoslovak SA 24 / 26 submachine guns; those had a little magazine clip-loadind device built into the right side of forend.
I don't have the answer , just an observation . Possibly the Coms loaded 2 power levels . 1 for handgun and 1 for machinegun . I'm not sure ? ...
The military 7.62x25 packaging I've observed comes 2 ways . Ammo on 8rd clips in various size boxes AND 70 rd boxed loose . Again , just an assumption but I assumed that anything loaded on 8rd strippers was for handgun capacity magazines . The 70 rd box most likely for the high capacity drum magazine of the machinegun . In a pinch , I'm sure they loaded whatever ammo they had on hand .
Just an observation . I have no evidence .
The military 7.62x25 packaging I've observed comes 2 ways . Ammo on 8rd clips in various size boxes AND 70 rd boxed loose . Again , just an assumption but I assumed that anything loaded on 8rd strippers was for handgun capacity magazines . The 70 rd box most likely for the high capacity drum magazine of the machinegun . In a pinch , I'm sure they loaded whatever ammo they had on hand .
Just an observation . I have no evidence .
tinygnat219
Member
WHat you have is the Czech Steel core SMG ammo. This would be fired out of the PPSH 41 and 43 SMGs.
This is not safe to fire in the pistols as it is loaded hotter than the standard Tokarev ammo. It is becoming a collector's item. Enjoy.
This is not safe to fire in the pistols as it is loaded hotter than the standard Tokarev ammo. It is becoming a collector's item. Enjoy.
max popenker got it right.
The ammunition is surplus submachinegun ammo and it is loaded quite a bit hotter than the standard 7.62X25, about 1650fps out of a handgun and 1800fps from the subgun.
The clips slide in a bracket on the side of the M26 subgun and the shooter places the magazine against the cartridges and pushes down, loading the cartridges into the magazine.
The stuff is supposed to be safe to shoot in a CZ-52 but it is NOT safe to fire in a Tokarev.
I wouldn't advise using this ammo in the CZ-52 either, it will wear parts,,,,quickly.
The ammunition is surplus submachinegun ammo and it is loaded quite a bit hotter than the standard 7.62X25, about 1650fps out of a handgun and 1800fps from the subgun.
The clips slide in a bracket on the side of the M26 subgun and the shooter places the magazine against the cartridges and pushes down, loading the cartridges into the magazine.
The stuff is supposed to be safe to shoot in a CZ-52 but it is NOT safe to fire in a Tokarev.
I wouldn't advise using this ammo in the CZ-52 either, it will wear parts,,,,quickly.
jonnyc
Member
If anyone cares to do a bit of research, they will find that a TT Tokarev is stronger, and can handle heavier loads than a CZ52. A number of shooters have carried-out destructive tests on CZs and TTs, side-by-side, and TTs happily digest loads that KB CZs.
In addition, Tokarev ammo loaded in 16, 40, 50, or 70 round packages is meant for both pistols and SMGs, there is no such thing as Tokarev SMG ammo. Some of the Czech surplus is loaded hotter to benefit the SMG Max mentioned, but it should be perfectly safe in a TT or even a CZ.
In addition, Tokarev ammo loaded in 16, 40, 50, or 70 round packages is meant for both pistols and SMGs, there is no such thing as Tokarev SMG ammo. Some of the Czech surplus is loaded hotter to benefit the SMG Max mentioned, but it should be perfectly safe in a TT or even a CZ.
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
I don't know, but I'd like some
Ash
Member
Nah, I have some of it and it has a lot of hang fires and duds. I got so tired of shooting it I put it away and forgot about it. Has silver bullets. Not real fun to shoot.
Ash
Ash
Apple a Day
Member
I had the same experience with it as Ash. I had a lot of hard primers and hang-fires with that stuff. The hang-fires really made me nervous. I still have a stripper or two laying around even though I've gotten rid of the CZ-52.
A local chain used to sell this ammo w/o warning toi it's power level. Comes on neat 8rd stripper clips for the above mentioned smg. I shot quite a bit thru a CZ52 before I learned it night be prudent to limit this. Is it for sure steel cored? It usually does have that neat nickel plated bullet.
max popenker
Member
Not sure about steel core, but in Czechoslovak service back then this same ammo tended to produce cracks in Cz-52 pistol frames in about 3,000 to 5,000 rounds.
mnw42
Member
Mauser
The 7.62x25 is a descendant of the 7.63x25 Mauser. The Broomhandel Mausers were very popular before the TT was developed and the power of the cartridge is what lead the Russians to develop their own "proprietary" cartridge. C96 Mausers had a fixed box magazine that was fed from strippers. The two rounds are semi-interchangeable and it is conceivable that this packaging was intended for old broomhandels and export.
The 7.62x25 is a descendant of the 7.63x25 Mauser. The Broomhandel Mausers were very popular before the TT was developed and the power of the cartridge is what lead the Russians to develop their own "proprietary" cartridge. C96 Mausers had a fixed box magazine that was fed from strippers. The two rounds are semi-interchangeable and it is conceivable that this packaging was intended for old broomhandels and export.
atblis
Member
Cz 52
The CZ52 is a surprisingly crappy pistol for the all the hype it gets. The varying metallurgy is rather worrisome. CZ52 frames seem to crack/crumble anyways. Still works though! Tempted to use welding mits and a face shield while shooting.
The CZ52 is a surprisingly crappy pistol for the all the hype it gets. The varying metallurgy is rather worrisome. CZ52 frames seem to crack/crumble anyways. Still works though! Tempted to use welding mits and a face shield while shooting.
mnw42
Member
I wasn't suggesting that one should; simply that it the only top stuffer that I can think of and an over simplified history leading to a possible explination.
tinygnat219
Member
atblis,
What's your source? Seriously, I am interested since I own both a CZ-52 and 2 TT-33s.
What's your source? Seriously, I am interested since I own both a CZ-52 and 2 TT-33s.
R.W.Dale
Member
I've owned both a Norinco Tokarev and a CZ52 it's been my experience that the above comment doesn't go far enough describing the CZ52 The Tokarev is a far superior firearm in all respects
atblis
Member
Maybe
My source is owning and shooting them (and the internet). It's funny to have to take it apart to shake out the broken chunks of metal, so that it'll function again. I haven't had one blow up in my face yet, but let's just say I don't shoot 52s much anymore.
I didn't say that the metallurgy was universally bad, just that it varied. Do you feel lucky?
They are really truly a crappy pistol. Horrible ergonomics, bad sights, questionable metallurgy, bad trigger, decocker that is dangerous, eats firing pins like candy, crappy magazines. On top of all that, probably one of the weakest pistols out there. I know you guys love Clark and all, but he is right about the thin spot in the barrel.
Still a good deal when they were $89. Not worth too much more than that IMO.
I really can't think of a crappier modern era military issue pistol.
Back to the original post. My personal opinion is that there was not different ammo for subguns and pistols. That would be very unRussian. The accounts of CZ52s blowing up has only to do with their crappiness.
My source is owning and shooting them (and the internet). It's funny to have to take it apart to shake out the broken chunks of metal, so that it'll function again. I haven't had one blow up in my face yet, but let's just say I don't shoot 52s much anymore.
I didn't say that the metallurgy was universally bad, just that it varied. Do you feel lucky?
They are really truly a crappy pistol. Horrible ergonomics, bad sights, questionable metallurgy, bad trigger, decocker that is dangerous, eats firing pins like candy, crappy magazines. On top of all that, probably one of the weakest pistols out there. I know you guys love Clark and all, but he is right about the thin spot in the barrel.
Still a good deal when they were $89. Not worth too much more than that IMO.
I really can't think of a crappier modern era military issue pistol.
Back to the original post. My personal opinion is that there was not different ammo for subguns and pistols. That would be very unRussian. The accounts of CZ52s blowing up has only to do with their crappiness.
max popenker
Member
well, you sort of right - however, there was some 7,62x25 ammo which was primary intended for SMG's - such as tracers.
The problem with Czechoslovak surplus ammo is that it was designed for SMG's, and was way too hot for pistols.
atblis
Member
SO
What is the headstamp on the Czech ammo in question? The rumour used to be that the Bulgarian ammo was the SMG only. Never heard anything about Czech ammo before.
What I can't figure out is that I never saw a notable velocity difference between supposed SMG ammo and regular. I know it is possible to have more pressure without an increase in velocity. But usually, SMG ammo is a little faster.
IIRC S&B commercial ammo was about as fast as it got. The Bulgarian might have been a hair faster. Other than that, everything else I every chronographed was slower.
It is all SMG ammo (except the 30 Luger stuff).
What is the headstamp on the Czech ammo in question? The rumour used to be that the Bulgarian ammo was the SMG only. Never heard anything about Czech ammo before.
What I can't figure out is that I never saw a notable velocity difference between supposed SMG ammo and regular. I know it is possible to have more pressure without an increase in velocity. But usually, SMG ammo is a little faster.
IIRC S&B commercial ammo was about as fast as it got. The Bulgarian might have been a hair faster. Other than that, everything else I every chronographed was slower.
It is all SMG ammo (except the 30 Luger stuff).
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