7.62X25 vs 7.63 Mauser. Which one is loaded to higher pressures?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by tark, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. tark

    tark Member

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    For years I have been engaged on running arguments with multiple people on this forum on the subject of shooting Tokarev ammo in a C-96. I have done it for years. I have been told it is not a wise thing to do because the Tok ammo is loaded hotter. (As in to mean higher pressures ) I have maintained that that is false, but I have never been able to find concrete evidence to back my claim. I did know that Small Arms of the World listed the German loading for the Mauser round was much faster than the Russian round, 1575 FPS vs 1390, both with 85 gr. bullets, but that doesn't necessarily mean higher pressures. I could not find anything on the SAAMI website listing pressures for either round.

    This chart was posted in another thread and it is the CIP numbers for each round. I'm not sure what "PT max" or "PK" or "PE" mean but I assume they are references to pressure. Notice that the Mauser round has higher numbers than the Tok in every category except "M" where the two have the same number.

    It seems to me that the Mauser is the higher pressure round, based on the numbers I'm seeing. Can anybody out there explain what the letters M, PT max, PK and PE on this chart mean? I think I may have proven my point. (Or made an idiot of myself. Again )
     

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  2. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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  3. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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  4. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    All depends on the time period and the individual manufacturer. The Russians simply started producing the 7.63 Mauser round and renamed it to fit their nomenclature. Same round with manufacturer differences...just like any other caliber.
     
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  5. tark

    tark Member

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  6. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    That's CIP's data. Since they're the standards organization that governs the pressure of both rounds, wouldn't it make a lot more sense for you to explain why the chart you posted differs from CIP's data? I'm just saying, nobody here is originating data on this topic--all we can do is cite other sources.

    For whatever it's worth, S&B lists 7.62x25 as 85gr @ 1643fps muzzle velocity from a 4.72" barrel.

    Fiocchi sells both calibers. 7.62x25 is 85gr @ 1525fps, 7.63Mauser is 88gr @1425fps. That puts the 7.62x25 higher in velocity, energy and momentum.
    :confused: Isn't that kind of messed up?
     
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  7. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    My brother cracked the bolt stop on his C96 shooting surplus Czech ammo intended for the CZ-52. This is the stuff that came boxed on the 8rd stripper clips.

    Was the ammo too hot? Was the recoil spring too old and weak? Was the cylinder stop defective?

    One or more of the above is correct- I don't know which.
     
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  8. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    The reason the data is different is because the revision dates are different.

    The data tark posted in #1 is from 00-06-07.

    The datafxvr5 posted in #2 is from 06-09-19.

    Obviously, le Commision felt the pressures needed to be adjusted over the years.

    One also needs to remember that nominally, Tokarev has a slightly larger case capacity, which means it can have slightly higher velocities for the same bullet weights and pressures.

    And by the way,

    PTMax = Pressure (transducer) average maximum in bar.
    PK = 1.15 x Pmax maximum statistical individual pressure in bar.
    PE = 1.25 x Pmax mean proof pressure in bar.
    M = location of the pressure take (mm from base).
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  9. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Most C96 pistols are relatively much older than are most tokarev pistols and CZ52 pistols. I make that point because after a hundred years the springs of a C96 that have never been replaced could possibly not be doing their task correctly and I can see parts that are a 100 years old getting battered more and failing.
    I for sure would not fire 7.62x25 Czech submachine gun ammo packed in 8 shot stripper clips in a C96. Some of the Czech ammo was known to be loaded hot not suitable for use in a valuable ancient pistol.
     
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  10. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    You are correct. Unfortunately, the knowledge base on this information was less distributed in the mid to late 80's when my brother was in his 20's and new import C96s were cheap and surplus ammo was cheap.
     
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  11. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    Not quite.

    7.62mm x 25 Tokarev and 7.63mm x 25 Mauser are not the same case.

    The length to the shoulder is longer and the shoulder taper is higher on the Tokarev, and the rim diameter and groove diameter of the Mauser is slightly larger. Not enough to prevent one from chambering in the other, but enough to show that they are not just copies.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
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  12. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    Years ago we did fire 7.63 mauser in a WWII T33 tokarev bring back pistol. The ammo was american in manufacture. But I believe it was downloaded a bit because there are weaker pistol designs out that that might accept that round. Below is one possible mismatch that might chamber.

    583c008d8c2772d02a68830337e84d5299fdebcc.jpg
     
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  13. unspellable

    unspellable Member

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    Note: The Tokarev specifies a bullet diameter about 0.002 inches larger than the Mauser. (7.90 mm vs 7.86 mm) This in itself would result in a bit higher pressure when running Tok ammo in the mauser. (Assuming the manufacturer actully uses two different bullets.)
     
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  14. tark

    tark Member

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    7.62X25 "submachine gun ammo " is a myth. It never existed. Ask jonnyc. Look at his creds. I think he knows his stuff.
    jonnyc says they are. He specializes in collecting both rounds. Again, look at his creds. He has forgotten more about these two rounds than you or I will ever know.
     
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  15. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    They are dimensionally different according to CIP and loaded to different pressures according to CIP. It's hard to argue they are the same.
     
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  16. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    I can’t see that the rounds are different enough to make a difference, but that’s just me, a clueless layman. I think the lack of good, new springs in a hundred + year old C96, or some 50+ year old surplus com bloc ammo of dubious provenance and storage conditions, could make a great deal of difference. Some ammo is known to get hotter as the smokeless powder chemically degrades.

    If a C96 can’t handle modern Tok commercial, assuming it has modern springs, then how did they not all blow up back in the day shooting WW1 ammo of highly variable quality?
     
  17. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    When we took my CZ-52 to the range for first time, all they had was Fiocchi 7.63mm Mauser FMJ. It functioned without issue.

    I have found the Czech surplus intended for the CZ to be definitely hotter than generic Chinese Tokarev import.
     
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  18. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    I can not swear about having any special creds on this ammo. But i do know what I have observed.
    I do know the Czech ammo on those 8 round strippers are intended for the VZ25. Picture of how it was loaded, the stripper clip guide is attached to the forearm of their submachine gun for loading magazines. So those strippers were without a doubt intended for their submachine gun. Some of that ammo, not only had a steel core, but it was also hardened. While that ammo will work in the CZ52 pistol (it did in my pistol), it is quite clear it was intended for their submachine gun and on plate steel was impressive for the few rounds that came into my possession and I shot them all up in pistol years ago. The velocities of 7.62x25 vary a bit according the factory that made them. I can not say more since that is what I know from observation and not what someone said.
    upload_2021-4-12_11-23-58.png
     
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  19. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Does the magazine for the VZ25 hold a multiple of 8, like 32 rounds?

    I seem to recall reading that the ammo for CZ-52 was finalized before the gun, and that a stripper clip was intended to be part of the loading process. However, the fielded pistol ended-up not using them.
     
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  20. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    I looked up jonnyc on this forum. I don't think he "knows his stuff."

    In this thread, https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/7-62x25.873950/page-3#post-11625563, post #57, he says with respect to the Tokarev and the Mauser being different, "Impossible, it's the same round with the same measurements. Any variation is simply what you would find between different manufacturers." Emphasis added.

    CIP dimensions are different for the two rounds. He has these facts wrong. That kinda destroys his credibility on this subject.

    It's one thing to make measurements from loaded ammo and say, "Any variation is simply what you would find between different manufacturers." if the dimensions happen to be close, but it's not the same as technical facts. The fact is, they are not the same. CIP specs are clear about this.

    CIP is the authority on these rounds. Trying to argue they are the same is a lost cause because all one has to do is look at the CIP specs to see that are not the same.
     
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  21. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    At this link they discuss magazine capacities and these guns were available in 9 and 7.62. There is a mention of a 32 round mag.
     
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  22. tark

    tark Member

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    I'll believe you without question if you will post a chart showing this. According to "Cartridges of the world" the two are indentical in some measurements and only varying by one or two thousandths in others. The CIP chart I posted clearly showed that at one point in time the Mauser round appeared to be loaded to a higher pressure.
    That may be quite true, but that does not automatically imply that the ammo they contain is loaded to higher pressures. I would want to see the packaging they come in. Does it state that the ammo is intended for subguns only.? If it does, please PM jonnyc, because I'm pretty sure he will want to buy it off of whoever has it.
     

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  23. fxvr5

    fxvr5 Member

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    Go to the CIP links I posted previously (post #2). It's all there.
     
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  24. barnetmill

    barnetmill Member

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    If I still had the packaging it would only give lot numbers, some general label, and year. Velocity was not given. People 'claim' for longer barreled submachine guns a velocity of 1800 fps. But I do not really know the specifics. Why not you do some research and let us know what you can find out about M48 Czech ammo.
    For more confusion read this old thread
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/cz-52-7-62x25-and-the-m48-cartridge.60838/
     
  25. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    WHB Smith "Small Arms of the World" Stackpole, 1966.

    "The Model 52 pistol is a native Czechoslovak design .... The pistol is chambered for the Czechoslovak-made version of the Soviet 7.62mm Type P pistol cartridge, which the Czechoslovaks call the Model 48. The Soviet and Czechoslovak cartridges are interchangeable with the 7.63 Mauser, but are considerably hotter loadings than are the United States commercial loadings of this round [7.63 Mauser].* For this reason, the functioning of Soviet and
    Czechoslovak weapons with commerciallly loaded 7.63mm cartridges is, at best, marginal. The Czechoslovak cartridge has a particularly heavy loading, being about 20% heavier than the Soviet."

    Under characteristics of the 7.62mm Model 52 Pistol:
    Barrel Length: 4.71 in.
    Muzzle velocity: 1600 fps.

    Under characteristics of the 7.62mm Submachine Gun:
    Barrel Length: 11.2 in.
    Muzzle velocity: 1800 fps.


    My note: Both Czech pistol and submachine gun were issued with the 7.62mm Model 48 cartridge which seems to be the equivalentof current S&B 7.62x25mm ammo.
    US Commercial ".30 Mauser" pistol ammo available in the 1960s was downloaded for safety in war trophy pistols of dubious condition. The current Fiocchi 7.63 Mauser commercial ammo is similarly mild at least from velocity figures.
    The WWII 7.63mm Mauser ammo issued with the Model 1932 pistol reached 1575 fps from a 5.63 in. barrel and was a bit warmer than WWII 7.62x25mm Soviet pistol ammo. 1960s US Commercial ammo in 7.63 Mauser was weak and there was no import or manufacture of 7.62x25mm in the US in the 1960s.
     
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