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7mm mag vs300 win mag target shooting

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by kestak, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. kestak

    kestak Member

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    For those of you who shoot long distance: 700+ meters, which one would be the funnier to shoot?

    Funnier meaning precision, handloading, recoil,etc...
     
  2. chaser_2332

    chaser_2332 Member

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    this is all personal opinion but to me its hard to beat the 7mm with the high BC bullets avaliable. with the 180 bergers i have had hits on MOA steel at 1580yds. that being said your not into the magnum distances with 700 meters, any reason you want to go that big.
     
  3. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    Between your choices I'd go with the .300 win mag. Now if you are just looking for a challenge you might want to look into the 30-06, .270, .280 or .260. All of these are capable of hits out to 1000 yards if you do your part. It's a lot easier on you shoulder than the Magnums and more interesting than the .308. Besides "Going Long Range" with a "hunting rifle" these days is not only doable but is way fun. Also it's fun to watch the guy with the $5K rifle get mad when you hit the same shot with a $500 hunting rifle
     
  4. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Since it depends on the quality of the setup and the skill of the shooter, odds are that it's six of one, half-dozen of the other.

    At one time, the 7mm bullets generally had higher BCs than the .30s and that might well be why the 7mmMag held the world record for 1,000 yards for some years. Bullet R&D pretty much wiped out that advantage.
     
  5. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Indeed it is fun to show off to the little-kit-5000$ of the shooter next to you.

    This week, I went with my ar-15 mounted with an ACOG to the range. I put steel at 300, 400, 500 and 600. I layed down on the ground, sling up and shot 5 rounds on 200 in rifleman cadence. Then did the same thing with the other steel plates. All 20 shots under 1 minute. The guy on the table next to me with his 5k$ kit was on bipod, rear squeeze bag, wind calculator and spotting scope. My wind calculator was my wet finger and the simple formulae: distance X wind speed / 1000 = moa deviation.

    Of course, my shots did not touch each other, but the theoretical commie was still dead....hehehe
     
  6. The_Armed_Therapist

    The_Armed_Therapist Member

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    The .300 Win Mag will give you about a 50-100y advantage over the 7mm Rem Mag as far as power is concerned and maybe a couple inches of less drop at the same distance. Also, the .300, I think (from what I've heard) is better for reloading. Lastly, the .300 Win Mag is rapidly growing in popularity, meaning it may be even more available than the 7mm Mag... if not now, then soon. The price that you pay for the slight edge of the .300 Win Mag is in recoil, of course. It has about 20-25% more than the 7mm Mag.
     
  7. Dthunter

    Dthunter Member

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    There is no practical difference between them. Both will shoot the same distances when tuned in the right rifles/load components. The 7mm will recoil less, making it more enjoyable to shoot. But the right platform for the 300WM will be just as fun!

    Just pick your favorite and shoot. There's nothing like hitting a gong at 1760 + yards!
     
  8. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    FreedomFreak;

    Incorrect information PAST 600 yards.

    The 7mm will, in many circumstances, hit HARDER at a longer range than the 300 Win Mag. It all depends on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet in question. Longer, sleeker bullets slip through the air better, which causes (most) 7mm loadings to outperform the 300 Win Mag (in velocity and kinetic energy) at a certain cut-off point.

    The trade-off is lighter rounds are affected by wind more.

    Edit: As Art pointed out, modern loadings are pretty damn good. A 220 Gr. Sierra Matchking in a 300 Win Mag is hard to beat.
     
  9. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Actually the 7 mag pulls even with the 300 mags at about 400 yards with the best bullets. As a hunting chambering, beyond 400 yards the 7 mag not only shoots flatter, but carries more energy. Inside 400 yards the trajectories are about the same, but the heavier 300 bullets have a slight edge in energy. The 7 mags also generate quite a bit less recoil. The 300's do have a slight edge in the wind because of heavier bullets.

    The potential of both is probably the same, but there is more data for a shooter to use, and a better selection of match bullets to choose from in .30 cal. Someone else has already done the R&D and I think it would be easier to get an accurate load/rifle combination in the 300's simply because there is a larger sample of data to work from. You would be doing more trial and error load development with fewer bullet options with the 7 mag.

    Remember, in a long range target rifle a flat shooting cartridge is not a prime concern, nor is power, you just have to have enough power to punch a hole in the paper target. You are shooting at the same known ranges every time and the sights can always be adjusted. On a hunting rifle you may be shooting at any possible range and they are unknown most of the time. You also need enough power to cleanly kill the animal you are hunting.
     
  10. Dthunter

    Dthunter Member

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    If a bullet is

    (140 grains 6.5cal, B.C .642 Berger Vld),

    or a (180grain match boattail target Berger,.284cal, B.C. .643), if the ballistic coefficient is equal, niether will deflect more/less in the wind.

    Weight specifically has nothing to do with deflection.

    B.C. is the value that represents a bullets profile that is exposed to wind deflection/velocity bleed off.

    The 7mm diameter is not magically superior, it is simply popular enough to get the bullet manufacturers to make the best profiles for the diameter. Popular means there is more money in it.

    I shoot 7mm allot as well by the way.

    Just shoot the one you feel most confident in.
     
  11. The_Armed_Therapist

    The_Armed_Therapist Member

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    Actually, this is a little bit embarrassing. Trent, I completely agree! I mixed up my numbers for the two. :eek:

    I honestly meant to say that the 7mm gets a 50-100y advantage over the .300 and that the .300 will drop a few more inches at the same distances.

    Now, the rest of what I said should be accurate... That the .300 has 20-25% more recoil and is more easily reloaded (though this has come from what I've heard others say rather than my own research). It is also true that the .300 mag seems to be gaining popularity.
     
  12. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    I have a 7mm mag for 1,000 yards. Until you get into the higher weight bullets in .30 cal, it's tough to beat the 7's BC. The .30's beat you up more.

    If I were starting over, it would be a 6BR, the .260 Rem, or another 6.5. The 6BR with 105's will match or outperform (ballistics wise) either of the two you listed. You'll have a real hard time exceeding the accuracy of the 6.

    If you're really serious, there's a guy on another site that has a match grade 6.5x284 that's priced pretty reasonable. It's all top of the line components. Shoots 1/4" . You couldn't come close to building something for the money.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
  13. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Dthunter - respectfully disagree. Might be splitting hairs here, but BC is a measurement which affects the DRAG while the projectile is moving in a forward direction.

    Wind affects the projectile based on weight. The "medium" which the projectile is "swimming in" is moving, in currents. Lighter objects have less resistance, inertia, to this.

    BC is the drag induced by forward motion in a specific air density. Wind "hits" the bullet from the SIDE (well, can be any direction, but we're really concerned with side pressure here). Which means the surface area being measured is significantly different than that which is used for determining B.C.

    For a matching BC a HEADWIND or TAILWIND will affect both projectiles equally. But any cross winds will affect the lighter bullet more. This is a function of exposed surface area to the crosswind component, mass, and how fast the bullet is already moving in that axis. (E.g. a bullet will "accelerate" sideways UNTIL it's sideways velocity component reaches almost the speed of the wind itself, and no more).

    So, yes and no.
     
  14. Dthunter

    Dthunter Member

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    Trentt:

    You have a few points trent, but, this splitting hairs doesnt change anything when it comes to wind deflection. plug the two bullets I gave into a ballistic program like Brian Litz (Applied Ballistics) and there will be no difference in wind deflection out past 1000 yards. (given an equal muzzle velocity).

    I have had the great opportunity to talk to Brian Litz VIA emails a few times, but I can only absorb so much info. (LOL!) At this level of shooting/ballistics discusion the difference is truely moot.

    Either way, your first line in your response to my post is exactly my point. I am not the best in explaining myself at times.

    I have always had the knack to figure all this trajectory stuff out, and shoot to 1760 yards (MOA or better in good conditions) without too much difficulty. I have even shot to 1900 yards. But, I "do" have trouble writing a post that a fellow educated shooter cant pick/split hairs with. I guess its the nature of these sites.

    At any rate, I enjoy these discussions! There is not many shooters up here that are interested in much more than the bang! LOL!

    Take care and keep it fun!
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  15. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    DThunter -

    The nonlinear mathematics behind it are estimations. Ballistic programs are only as effective as the math behind them. Not saying his math is wrong or right (not wanting to get in to a math discussion - it's WAY beyond the point of the thread lol), but mass is absolutely a component of wind drift; a major one.

    ALL ballistic software programs that I know of, ESTIMATE the wind drift based on constants. They are not true 6-independent-axis programs that truly model the flight of the projectile.

    I know of NO 6-axis ballistic programs commercially on the market. The US Army did quite a hell of a study on this, including the use of doppler radar to get an idea of what happens to a bullet when it enters the transsonic space (right at and below mach 1). Even with all the fancy equipment there was STILL a heck of a lot of unanswered questions and speculation.

    Anyway, wind drift is damn near impossible to model on a computer. Period. You can get CLOSE, but you'll never really get it, at least, not unless you want to model a true 6 axis system and burn a LOT of supercomputer time. Even then, it'll be an estimation, because all of the really interesting stuff happens on the atomic level.

    Ballistic software will get you close, sure. But I've personally shot in conditions where it was just flat wrong, based on the load I was using.

    You've probably got a lot more practice at longer ranges than I do (I'm not aware of any 1000 yard ranges in Illinois, and the furthest I get to shoot regularly is just upwards of a quarter mile). I would imagine that as those distances grow substantially, so does the wind concern.

    And it's your Mk. 1 eyeball, studying the terrain and getting a feel for how that wind is really moving back & forth across the flight path, which really matters. WE have a supercomputer right between the ears, and that gut feeling you get is it's "best answer". :)
     
  16. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    kestak I guess you like being used as a recoil stop and when shooting the 300 or the 7mm rem mag you will get tired of being be on with the average bolt rifle and weight. That is only one reason the more season shooter shooting your shooter distance or useing differnt short 6.5 and even 6mm cartidges and shoting groups under a 1/2" at 600 yards.

    Nothing magic about ether round and I hunt with a 7mag. If I was looking for a new rifle today i would shoot a short action 6.5 cartidge.

    Guess by now everone knows how great the 338 lapua is. The 260rem can have less fall and less wind drift at 600 yards than a 338 lapua does with its best load. .
     
  17. kestak

    kestak Member

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    I use bench rest only for initial zero. Afterward, I shoot prone with a ling (Appleseed style) and refine my zero with the new POI. A sling removes A LOT of the recoil. In fact, the first time my wife shot a Nagant, it was prone with a ling and she commented the recoil was "like a 223".

    This morning I shot 40 rounds in my garand, 50 rounds in my Nagant and 12 rounds in my .270. My shoulder is perfectly ok because I use a sling.
     
  18. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    If you want a good magnum round for reloading, I would reccomend a 300 WSM or 7mm WSM.

    The short magum case is easier to reload and takes the complications of a belted case out of the picture, all while being able to be shot out of the Remington 700 short action.
     
  19. kestak

    kestak Member

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    I want 300 win mag or 7 win mag also because I have half a box of each of once fired brass I got during the last year...

    It is my problem, I am a handloader addict. I had too much 270 brass, I had to buy a 270. Then too much 30-30 brass, got a 30-30.....oh well..
     
  20. chaser_2332

    chaser_2332 Member

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    your baseing your caliber decision on the fact you have 10rds each of brass?
     
  21. kestak

    kestak Member

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    Oupsssssss. It is what happen while one-finger typing on my ipad: half a large usps box of each caliber. More like 300-400 brass of each...:)

    With the 270, I had 2 large usps boxes...

    You must got a good laugh at the stupid kestak who buys a gun becausevhe has 10 brass cases...rotflol
     
  22. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Sell that brass, the WSM cases are easier to load for and IMO a short action is preferable.
     
  23. Dthunter

    Dthunter Member

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    trent:

    Yes our personal "super computer" is what really matters!

    I have on numerous occasions shot 3 or 4 rounds of a group only to have a new wind condition show up and try to spoil a decent group in progress! lol!
    Some times I can adjust and still tuck it in there, but some times....... well, not so much. LOL!

    At longrange I feel allot of it is instinct. (if there is no flags). that makes those first round hits sooooo satisfying! I wish I had more of them!
     
  24. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Dthunter - I just wish I had a long range to shoot at!!!!

    I've been looking for a stretch of land for over 4 years to buy, JUST so I can shoot at a longer distance than 450 yards. A 300 Win Mag at 300-450 yards is just .. boring, after awhile. Same reason I rarely shoot my 50BMG anymore.

    Also (referring to another post) 300 Win Mag belt doesn't matter with reloading - it doesn't headspace off of it. So it loads just like any other ammo. Cases wear out a lot faster if you full length size, but I have got a lot of life out of my brass by neck sizing.
     
  25. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    The reasons folks use to pick a cartidge !!!! amassing
     
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