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7mm08 ammo: factory load diversity?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by AStone, Jul 1, 2006.

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  1. AStone

    AStone Member

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    In case you don't want to read the "why" part behind this question, here's the question right up front: are there sources where one can buy factory loads for 7mm08 with bullet sizes other than 120 & 140 gr? (Say as small as 100 and as large as 160?)
    _______________

    Background for those who care:

    I'm getting closer to buying my "deer" rifle (read, medium-sized game rifle), even though - because business has been slower than I'd hoped for - it's now going to be at least late summer before I can do it. <sigh> :(

    So, I'm appeasing myself by continuing to research my options. I've pretty much picked out which bolt rifle I want (but that need not concern us here).

    And, I have narrowed the caliber down to two: 7mm08 & .308.

    I've participated in numerous threads on the virtues of both (some of you have even become a bit annoyed with me for nitpicking so much on this decision :rolleyes: ), and read even more. I've read review articles both on and off THR until I'm blue in the face.

    I understand the the 7mm08 is a necked down .308, and that the 7mm08 has some very impressive ballistics (and in some ways is ballistically superior to the .308; use these Remingon ballistics comparison charts to compare for yourself).

    Honestly, for several reasons, in my heart of hearts, I really want a 7mm08: lower recoil, excellent ballastics, adequacy for everything from white tail to mulie to antelope to elk as long as I do my part.

    My only hang up this: as far as I can tell, in factory loads, bullet selection is low in 7mm08 compared with the much greater diversity in .308.

    In factory loads, I'm really finding only two bullet sizes in 7mm08: 120 & 140 gr. Selections are much larger for factory loads in .308.

    Eventually, I may get into reloading. I do want to. For me right now, it's a matter of time (I ain't got none) and money (I ain't got enough, and most of my extra time goes to making enough money to pay rent and eat so I can go hunt).

    So, to my question, again: are there sources where one can buy factory loads for 7mm08 with bullet sizes other than 120 & 140 gr?

    Thanks.

    Nem
     
  2. mete

    mete Member

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    Why do you think you NEED more bullet weights ? You do have a good selection of different types of bullets in just the 140 gr weight.The 7mm-08 is a winner , accurate and effective .Get one ,use it and you'll love it !! I used a 6.5x55 for 25 years on deer , only with the 140 gr bullet .It always performed VERY well .To buy a new rifle I wouldn't hesitate getting a 7mm-08.
     
  3. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Mete, I don't necessarily think that I do "need" other weights. As I've written in other threads, in some senses, I think it could be a good thing to have fewer choices. It makes practice, sighting, etc easier (because there are fewer rnds to have to practice with to learn their ballastic characteristics with my particular rifle).

    So, I'm not arguing that I "need" them. All I'm trying to do in this thread is determine this: if I want other weights, are they available in factory loads.

    After a fair amount of reading, and visiting online ammo stores, my sense is that the answer is no.

    But I'm just trying to cover all my bases.

    Thanks,

    Nem
     
  4. 420Stainless

    420Stainless Member

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    If you need or want factory load diversity you should certainly get the .308.

    I did run across a 150 load the other day while looking for some 140 gr. loads for my wife's 7mm-08.

    www.cheaperthandirt.com/67334-6974-273.html
     
  5. AStone

    AStone Member

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    I'm going to selfishly bump this thread. It's fallen off the table of contents page for RC, and I'm not quite ready for it to die yet. (I'm thinking a lot of folks are on holiday for the 4th...ah, lucky those who get to take holidays....)

    Still wondering if there is more 7mm08 diversity out there than I'm aware of....
     
  6. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    I found in my 7mm-08 (Rem. 700) the Remington Core-Lokt 140gr loads shot well. I had a few issues with bullets not exactly taking the straightest path through animals so I started loading the brass with 160gr speer boattails and it's worked good. As for factory loads in that weight, I haven't seen any. You may have to roll your own. When I get home I could give you the load info if you want to PM me.
     
  7. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Thanks, DTDrew. PM sent.
     
  8. Otherguy Overby

    Otherguy Overby member

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    Hey, if you can get 7mm-08 ammo on sale at Walmart, wot's yer problem? :what:

    7mm-08 may be the "sweet spot" in .308 class cartridges. If not, it's close.

    Your choices: buy something small and light, say a model seven Remington or something comparable, and shoot factory loads. Or, go the other way and get about a 26 bull barrel rifle for the range and roll your very own own rounds. Both will do you just fine.

    Happy 4th!
     
  9. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Good to hear from you, OO. Long time no read.
    I'm hearing that loud and clear. I've read so many reviews of it, both on THR and elsewhere, that attest to that. (Schleprok first pointed it out to me in some long past thread.)

    It's actually a bit surprising to me that the ammo manufacturers haven't picked up on the (ostensible) ballistic superiority of the 7mm08 and developed more factory loads. I understand that the .308 is popular, and for good reason (among others its military connections). But dang, I just dream of how popular the 7mm08 would be if there were more factory loads.

    On the other hand, maybe they're worried that other loads would fall short. (Unlikely when I think of it...)
    That Rem Mod 7 is at the top of my list of rifles I'm considering. I won't turn this into a thread about rifles by listing the other contenders. But the Rem 7 seems to be the optimum for me given my particular set of circumstances: where I'll hunt, my size, etc.

    And that's one reason that I'm still considering 7mm08: in a smaller, lighter-weight gun with a shorter barrel, I think that the tad bit (yes, I acknowledge it's tiny) of recoil reduction and straighter trajectory that the 7mm08 offers could be noticable.

    Nem
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2006
  10. Otherguy Overby

    Otherguy Overby member

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    Winchester and Remington both show 3 loads each for 7mm-08 most are 140 grains which should give you a hint as to what bullet weight works best... :)

    I recall almost making an impulse purchase of a Model 7 somewhile back at a Cabela's. I may still get one one of these days. I've a 700 in 7mm-08 presently.
    Zactly! sorry about the tardy response, but it seems everyone else is talked out on this thread. I'm hoping to get business taken care of so I can finish relocating to the Ozarks. You still interested in visiting the Phillippines?
     
  11. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Remington 150gr is the only option outside of 120gr and 140gr. You'll either have to reload or live with the 120gr and 140gr fodder if you want to shoot 7mm08.

    I love the 7mm08, and reload about a hundred rounds a month of the stuff. But it, like the 260, is simply not popular enough (don't sell enough) to be offered in a wide range of off-the-shelf loads. If you're only going to shoot factory ammo and really want bullet diversity, then I'd recommend either the 308 or (my favorite at the moment) the 25-06.
     
  12. BCHunter

    BCHunter Member

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    All that counts is where you put the shot

    To Nematocyst-870


    You need to get away from your computer and stop thinking so much. Buy a rifle, who cares what calibre or whether it is new or used, and get out to your local range and learn how to use it proficiently before deer season.

    Get yourself some good well worn in boots and actually go hunting.

    All this crap about pondering about the virtues of the 7mm-08 or 308 or any other isn’t doing you any good. Get out and get some experience.
     
  13. AStone

    AStone Member

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    OO & RBernie, good points. Thanks.

    OO, as for the Phillippines, I think you're confusing me with someone else. I've never had an interest in going there. (Not that it isn't a fine place, but there are too many other spots that interest me more.)

    BCHunter, I see you are brand new to THR. Welcome to the forum.

    However, may I suggest, for your maximum pleasure and in order to fit into the community optimally, that you just honor the questions that are being asked, trusting that those asking them have appropriate motivations for doing so, and providing information that may help answer them.

    When I want to know if my question is worthwhile or not, I promise I'll ask that explicitly.

    Until then, bro, I'd suggest just going with the flow. ;)

    Nem
     
  14. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Nem - with all due respect, it's not like BCHunter isn't on to something. Do you really think that a one inch difference in drop at three hundred yards between a 140gr 7mm08 and a 150gr 308 is worth worrying over? Will it make the difference between a clean kill or not? (And if the answer to the latter question is 'yes', then I suggest that you not take that shot until you can answer 'no'.)

    From your posts, I've personally concluded that you tend to overanalyze things. Had you spent any significant time in the field, you'd quickly learn that every time you use a firearm things are going to be so fluid and ad-hoc such that optimizing that last 2% won't much matter. Your emotional and physical performance is almost ALWAYS going to be the limiting factor - not the chambering or the name on rifle.

    That's really not bad advice, you know.

    Get yourself an inexpensive bolt action 308, stoke it with affordable milsurp ammo, and learn to shoot in the field. Shoot at paper. Shoot at living things - hogs are always yummy reactive targets. Shoot on your feet, on your knees, on your belly, in the hot, in the cold, in the glare of day, and in the waning light of dusk. Once you've done that and have developed some basic fieldcraft with a rifle, you can start refining things based upon field learnings rather than paper analysis.

    Or, you could go back to the Remington web site and analyze chambering trajectories and load offerings for a few more hours. The downside to that approach is that, in the end, you STILL won't actually know what bullet from what round works best on what game under a given set of circumstances.
     
  15. AStone

    AStone Member

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    OK, with all due respect to all of you...

    I've said this repeatedly in other threads, but just in case you've missed it. This is the last time I'm going to write this, so read carefully, please.

    I can't afford a rifle yet. I'm still $100 bucks short of July rent. "The check's in the mail", say my clients, but it's been a process. I'm a new business owner, struggling in one of the worst economies in the country to survive by running a business that's totally unique and challenging to market.

    The summer is my most challenging time financially as few people want what I'm selling during that time. (The reasons are OT and not relevant.)

    Thus, in order to allow my proposed rifle some space in my ongoing decision process, AND because I can only afford ONE rifle AND I have NO (that's "0") interest in having to trade it because I didn't research my options carefully (as has happened SO many times in the past for me), I am asking questions that I believe are relevant to me in my decision.

    If they aren't relevant for you, that's fine. I'm cool with it.

    But I'm not you, and you're not me, so please don't attempt to talk me out of my questions. I'm grown boy (55), an experienced shooter (.22, .35, .58 (cap lock), shotgun. 38, 9mm....), and a college-level science & math teacher who studies & teaches about the nonlinear dynamics of complex systems, within which TINY, almost unmeasureable differences in system input variables can result in HUGE differences in system output & response.

    Translation: I don't care if you think that the small difference in ballistic characteristics between 7mm08 & .308 are irrelevant. With all due respect to your experience and knowledge, I simply don't believe your assertion because of many, many, many papers and books {about system dynamics} to the contrary (not to mention my own shooting experiences since I was 9): details matter, which is why I'm asking the question.

    Now, if you want to just discuss whether the question is relevant or not, that's cool. I'm fine with that. But please take that discussion elsewhere. Maybe I'll join you in that discussion and maybe I won't.

    But this thread is NOT about that topic. (Please see post #1.)

    With as much respect as I can muster at this moment, and feeling a bit testy... :mad:

    Nem
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2006
  16. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Okey-doke

    You are certainly free to define the help you're seeking as narrowly as you want. You are free to declare your THR threads to be yours alone, and guard their content and direction with vigor. You can wonder why your threads don't overflow with input, or why, months and months later, you remain in this state of perplexity vis-a-vis which direction you should take in purchasing something as simple as a hunting rifle. I leave the root-cause analysis of all those dynamics to you.

    I'm sorry to hear this (BTDT) but it has no bearing on the advice you've been given. You can buy a yeoman bolt-action with reasonable practical accuracy, topped with decent glass, for less than $450 out the door. You can use it for several years to get experience as a rifleman. You can then sell it for $300 or more, and have spent no more than $150 in exchange for several years of real-life experience.

    You're standing on the sidelines, afraid to get in, because you don't want to be wrong. But you WILL be wrong no matter what you do on the sidelines, because no amount of analysis will make your first moves perfectly correct.

    One of the great things about getting old is that we learn to fear mistakes less and value new inputs more. No sense getting uptight about being wrong - some of the best learnin' occurs by trial and error.

    Nobody's trying to talk you OUT of your questions - we're simpy trying to help you put them, and their resultant answers, into a context that you appeared not to have.

    Let's face it - a simple Google search would (and did) answer the question you posed in this thread. You don't need THR to answer this question. Yet you posed it to us. As a result, several THR members tried to both answer the question at face value as well as address the overarching context. If you don't like that, then I would suggest that you unleash your GoogleFu upon the Internet and refrain from asking easily-answered questions in a publicly-accessible forum.

    Let's face it - you asked the question here because you wanted to talk to kindred spirits about things that were important to you. Some of those kindred spirits tried to give you tangential advice that they believed would be useful to you. You don't like that? Then it's probably best that you not use THR as an emotional sounding board for easily-answered questions.

    Then you, of all people, should appreciate my point. Your analysis model is flawed because it's built on too many presumptions. Your model will remain flawed until you put it in practice and determine which variables exist within a narrow domain and cannot be reasonably optimized given your finite resources and which variables exist within such a sufficiently broad range as to warrant optimization.

    'No plan survives initial contact with the enemy' - Von Moltke (Elder)

    Nobody said that 'details don't matter'. What we suggested is that you find the most important details to worry about. You know that old saw about 'missing the forest for the trees'? There's a real nugget of truth in there....

    I didn't ask you to say it once, and the number of times that you choose to repeat it (or not) is irrelevant to my enjoyment of THR.

    I'm sorry to hear that. Really.

    But it doesn't alter a thing relative to this discussion. If you have control issues with the responses you get, I'd suggest not posting to a publicly accessible forum.
     
  17. AStone

    AStone Member

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    I have no control issues. I have only issues with those who presume to reshape, and - I assert - misinterpret & misrepresent my motivations for asking a legitimate question.

    Yes, I HAVE googled the question, and have looked through many pages of responses from that google search. I found that 120's and 140's are indeed the most common, but thought - perhaps, here in the depths of the wisdom space called THR - that some person may have knowledge relevant to the questions that is accessible more quickly than searching, say, 300 google suggestions.
    I'm standing on the sidelines because, as I mentioned before...
    Moderators, I've learned what I needed from this thread. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's run it's course, and think it should be closed.

    I'll take my further searches on this issue to google.

    Thanks for all the advice.

    Nem
     
  18. Dobe

    Dobe member

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    Nem,
    In the future, I suggest that you simply give an emotional preamble in the first post such as "I really love the 7mm-08, and nothing else will do. Oh, yes, I know that ballistically the .308 is so close that it doesn't matter, but I really love the 7mm-08.

    That way those who want to argue with you will know that your mind is made up, and will simply give you your answers.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There will never be more of a selection for the 7mm-08 until more demands for the selection are there. If you and enough others demand it, someone will build it. I'm telling you something you already know.

    By the way, I am one of those people that believe an inch or two makes a difference. I enjoy precision. I also own among others, a 7mm-08.
     
  19. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    From "on paper": An '06 or a .308 launches a 150-grain bullet around 2,900 ft/sec, mostly. The 7mm08 gives a 140-grain bullet right at the same velocity. If you sight in for about 2" high at 100, all three will be pretty close to dead-on at 200 and roughly six inches low at 300.

    From "the field": My only "shot in anger" was on a thick-bodied feral dog at around 50 yards. I disremember was it a Remington factory or a handload, but the bullet blew right on through. I figure the 139- or 140-grain bullets will do about the same on Bambi.

    As far as rifles, the June issue of "American Hunter" mentioned the Stevens 200 as being basically a Plain-Jane Savage. External finish isn't all polished up. The test firing, in '06, gave groups under one MOA. The price is under $300 at some stores.

    Art
     
  20. USSR

    USSR Member

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    LOL, the problem with this, as well as many other shooting related websites, is that most of the posters want to talk about rifles, without actually using them. All the hypothetical questions, especially "this vs. that" posts, tend to drive me up the wall. Makes me want to say "Hey, if you need to have a bunch of people who you don't know, make up your mind for you, then you have bigger problems than "this vs. that". Some people don't seem to understand that a 1MOA rifle in the hands of a skilled marksman is more effective than a .75MOA rifle in the hands of a novice. Get the best stick you can afford and practice, practice, practice. Rant off.

    Don
     
  21. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Ditto, on both counts. As I stated:
    But until a shooter can reliably put a bullet into a spot reasonably close to the intended target at 300 yards under field conditions, then the difference between the trajectory of 308 and 7mm08 is largely moot.

    Let's say that you have a rifle and load that can group five shots into a four inch circle @ 300 yards off the bench, with a zero that's 2.5" high at 100 yards and 5" down at 300 yards. You think, "this is teriffic - what a great trajectory!". And you're correct. But if you can't can't keep a group under eighteen inches at 300 yards from a field position, of what value is that trajectory? How did it help you?

    More importantly, of what value is that trajectory if you can't tell the difference between 300 and 350 yards (between which distances the 7mm08 and 308 bullets will drop more than ten inches)? Knowing and optimizing the trajectory of your projectile won't help you if you can't accurately estimate the range to target and therefore place your projectile on an intersecting path with the target.

    My point to Nem870 was that the trajectory delta between 7mm08 and 308 is but one small part of the overall equation of placing lead on target. Invariably, the human factor (estimating wind and distance and being able to shoot accurately from field positions) is far more of an issue than the trajectory of the chambering. If you accept that to be true, then the issue of factory load options in 7mm08 become less relevant than simply getting a rifle in a chambering that can be used cheaply and with lots of load options and learning HOW TO SHOOT.

    It will, and it'll do it on 200lb hogs, too.

    Exactly the example I was thinking of, Art. Put a Burris FFII on it and be in the field for less than $450. Sell it for $300 when you're ready to move up to a Tikka chambered in something useful to the type of shooting you've evolved into doin'.

    I'm getting that way. As much as I'm an engineer by trade and education and tend to try to optimize things beyond reason, even *I* have come to understand that the software is almost always in greater need of optimization than the hardware.

    Not to get personal or anything, but am I the only one who sees the humor in this? :)
     
  22. AStone

    AStone Member

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    You've been "getting personal" since yesterday, rbernie, when you wrote this:
    That's a personal judgement with a critical edge. I'll address it below.

    As for my statement that I thought the thread should be closed because I'd learned what I wanted to from it, your implication that I have control issues seems a stretch. I posted the question (see post #1) seeking information about the existence of factory loads for 7mm08 other than 120 & 140. I've heard from several folks ostensibly more knowledgeable about 7mm08 than me, and the answer is - except for some 150's - no. Good enough for me.

    Since then, the thread has taken a different track around the questions: 1) does it really matter that the ballistics of the 7mm08 are slightly but significantly different from the .308? (which may deserve its own thread) and 2) Does Nematocyst-870 (and others with an interest in the first question) "overanalyze" things?

    The word "overanalyze" has decidedly negative connotations, implying that there is something wrong with my research strategy and bordering on ad hominem. In a previous post in this thread, as well as in posts in other threads, I've explained why I pay close attention to detail. (Systems theory, nonlinear dynamics, sensitivity to initial conditions, phase transitions at critical thresholds, yada yada.)

    I'm fully and utterly aware - based in my own personal experiences with firearms starting when I was 9 (I'm now 55) - that all of the factors mentioned by participants in this thread are important in making the shot. Of course practice - long practice and much experience - is important with any gun. Isn't that a premise for all of us?

    But to assert that paying attention to ballistic details is not JUST as important is - IMO - incorrect to the point of being absurd. The differences between .308 & 7mm08 DO matter, IMO, or else the "new" chambering (7mm08) would never have been developed from the former (.308). If it didn't really matter, we'd still have only .308.

    And if it didn't matter, we'd not even have .308, but would still be using .30-06.

    I'm happy with my level of analysis. It's fun. It's informative. It teaches me new things I never knew before.

    For those who do not want to read my level of analysis,the solution is easy: don't read what I write and don't visit my threads. Simple. I wish you well.

    But just for the record, I'm not interested in reading that you believe that I'm overanalyzing. It's demeaning. It suggests that you are somehow more intelligent than me, that you've got all the answers already, and I'm just a peon.

    "Here ya' go, little peon, I'm an engineer, I know better than you and I have concluded that you are overanalyzing." That's the way it feels.

    More to the point, your opinion about my research strategy is not going to influence my strategy one iota. Thus, your continued assertions that I (and others) do is so much dust in the wind and wasted bandwidth.

    Your opinion about the appropriateness of my level of analysis is not going to influence the types of questions that I ask and how far I take the analysis, so it'd be better for everyone if you just stick to the questions being asked and avoid ad hominem all together. Focus on the questions at hand, not on the questioner.

    Now, this post - driven by your assertion (along with BC's) that I'm overanalyzing - is precisely the reason that I suggested (did not demand or even request) that this thread be closed. Once threads wander into the realm of personal analysis of the poster instead of dealing with the questions that have nothing to do with personality, they just get bogged down in diatribe and polemic.

    This thread is now way off topic - this has little to do anymore with diversity of rnds for 7mm08 - and simply seems a waste of server space and THR member time.

    Still, I could care less whether the thread is closed or open. The mods are intelligent people and will do as they wish about closure or not. I have no control over that and it causes me no stress.

    Long live this now-OT thread.

    Long live detailed analysis and discussion of minor differences in ballistics, without which human knowledge of ballistics would not be where it is.

    Nem
     
  23. Schleprok62

    Schleprok62 Member

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    Nem... hey man... lomg time no type... :eek:

    I'm kind of agreeing with one of the earlier posts that sometimes fewer choices might be a better thing... at least until you get some proficiency with your rifle. (and we know you're STILL drooling over that Browning... :rolleyes: ) Anyway... Federal makes a 150gr with the Speer HotCor soft point which I have heard some pleasing feedback on. But seeing how I have begun to load my own, I've settled on Nosler bullets for the 7mm-08 and Hornady HPBT's for the .223 (boy do they put a hurtin' on squirrels... ;) )

    But, I also agree, and knowing I do it myself sometimes, that you tend to be a bit over-analytical... but that's why we wuvs you... ;)
     
  24. F=ma

    F=ma Member

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  25. rockstar.esq

    rockstar.esq Member

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    So I see a couple of aspects to this thread that are causing so much strife. The first of which is that nem870 has been writing about the 7mm08 for as long as I've been a member. Similar to the never ending 9mm vs 45acp debates, many here log on hoping that something NEW will be discussed rather than senseless rehashing. The story is always the same, the postee writes that they "have a right" to post something no matter how mundane or tedius and others attempting to establish a "progressive" culture make efforts to redirect them if not simply ask them to use the search function. Nem870 is right that the 7mm08 wouldn't be if it weren't for analytical minds in search of improvement. Speaking more to the point of this thread and why I think it went askew is that Nem870 posts about the same thing over and over again. I realize the research and process of discovery is satisfying. So too is the shared experience of the gun culture unique to this forum. Consider that for many long term members, they have answered some of those questions many many times. The trouble as I see it is that Nem870 realises that his/her posts are coming off as repetitive and analytical to the displeasure of many, yet can't seem to find a way to conduct him/herself differently. A different tack could involve invitations to post generally about the topic. I think the most irritating aspect of this dynamic is that enthusiasm ends up becoming the wedge that drives members apart. Nem870 is clearly digging the 7mm08 research, many members are digging the notion that at least once a day there will be a thread pertaining to a topic that a) isn't obviously answered by the first two posters. and b) isn't some tired diatribe about a senselss debate. I think Nem870 got quite a few posters who directly answered the intent of the post, then after a self preserving post a few members took umbrage with the demeanor of the thread. Nem870, I don't know you but I truly want you to feel welcome here. I didn't mean for anything I've written to appear as an attack on the character of any member.
     
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