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80% Suppressor delivered to your home?

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by Wolfsbane, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Member

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    I came across this on Wish.com. Wish a site that sells Chinese items which are shipped direct from China. They're very low cost items, generally because the shipping time they take to arrive is usually considerably longer than westerners are used to.

    I found this and similar items.

    Muzzle Brake Compensator 9mm 1/2x28 TPI 7 Inch Length Black 7075 Aluminium CNC Recoil

    It's $46.

    I'd just post a picture but the site won't allow me to get the url of it's images.

    They also sell similar designs in 5.56 and 7.62.

    https://www.wish.com/product/5b431a9ed9b2a407d6ecc525

    Is it me or does this look an awful lot like a suppressor without the outer tubing?

    Anybody have an opinion on this?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2018
  2. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I’m not willing to sign up to the website to look at the link you posted, but if it’s what I think it is then there are tons of them on eBay.

    I’d have an approved Form 1 in hand before I ordered one, if I decided to go that route.
     
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  3. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Screen capture then click “upload a file”.

    Like this...

    DF466685-4B94-4C1A-B63E-CD03ECC500C8.jpeg
     
  4. Wolfsbane

    Wolfsbane Member

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    Yeah, a lot like those. A bunch of walled cells that could easily be contained by a length of tubing. I guess the Chinese aren't concerned with ATF regulations.

    Wish also has AR magazines for sale. They have them listed as ten round but they're considerably longer length and have the slight kink of 30 round ones. They look like these.

    3023001178CPD_00.jpg

    I'm sure the Chinese will ship to California, New York or New Jersey, despite state regulations.



     
  5. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Will the Chinese appear in court with you?
     
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  6. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    Can you get an approved form 1 without the serial number of the device?
     
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  7. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    This looks like a silencer part to me given SIG lost their case on the same "brake" concept.

    Mike
     
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  8. JeffG

    JeffG Member

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    I am not willing to "nibble " around the edges of a very specific set of Federal laws. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I don't want the BATFE knocking on my door with duck hunting on their mind. If I want a suppressor/silencer, I will go to a 4x4 legit vendor and submit the paperwork. My .02$
     
  9. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    No, but you make that up yourself and put it on the can when you build it AND you have to have the approval before you start.
     
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  10. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Form 1 is the form for homemade devices. Make up your own and engrave it on the tube. Form 4 is for a device that already exists. That “muzzle brake doesn’t have a SN.
     
  11. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I recently stumbled across a bunch of these on eBay and posted here as well. I can’t imagine that the great white father would approve. Being that the legal landscape is what we currently have in play, I would not be willing to put money into one of those. It’s too complete. If they took the time to get approval to build it and sell it as a not-nfa-yet item and treat it as an 80% suppressor then I’m cool with it. Otherwise I see it like a “solvent trap”. Too complete to have much other purpose than to be a suppressor. With the cost of a real deal suppressor being what it is, I can’t see these $50 wannabes making sense after some work, some parts, and a $200 pay-to-play fee. Your going to save money, but at that price point you might as well do it once and do it right, which is what a bought item is.

    With the shameless crap being sold, im waiting for an integrally suppressed 10/22 barrel to be marketed that just needs a sleeve over the barrel.
     
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  12. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I built a pretty decent 30 caliber can from a D cell tube. By the time everything was paid for I might have $120 in materials invested. There are precious few decent 30 caliber cans under $500, so the cost savings are significant. If someone were to buy a few remade cones and then bore and clip them, they could make something essentially functionally the same as the best of the high end cans. The cost savings of a Form 1 can are nothing to sneeze at.
     
  13. George P

    George P Member

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    It is also amazing how much less the US made cans are overseas in countries where they can be bought OTC as safety devices - $399 NZD = $266 USD

    upload_2018-9-21_11-31-6.png

    .
     
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  14. George P

    George P Member

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    Do suppressors for air rifles also require NFA stamps?
     
  15. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    In general, if they are removable, then they are considered firearm silencers and subject to the NFA.
     
  16. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    I can't link to the article right now, but, essentially, yes. The question is, can it be easily modified for use on a firearm.

    An example of easily modified was used. In that example the silencer was integral to the barrel. The ATF was able cut off the barrel, then a threaded block was welded to it, making it usable on a firearm. Once you allow the use of a saw and a welder, the the definition of easily modified becomes broad.

    So, while a suppressor for an air rifle does not need a stamp, any silencer that can be easily modified will need a stamp. The definition of easily seems to include access to a full ATF work shop and experienced armorers.
     
  17. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    That seems to be at odds with the existence of the Silencerco Maxim 50
     
  18. Hasaf

    Hasaf Member

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    Again, I am just repeating what I read. I can not get to Pyramid Air's web-page right now, I am pretty sure that is where I read it. I do understand that it is a weird example of easily converted.

    They may have relaxed their position, I can think of no other way that things like solvent traps can be legal, after all, to convert them, all one would have to do is shoot through it. Of course, the standard would need to be less than easily converted by an experienced armorer in a fully equipped workshop. After all, by that standard, things like 2L soda bottles would be illegal.

    I will link to the article later today.
     
  19. TTv2

    TTv2 Member

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    Back when Sig made the MPX, the ATF said it was a "muzzle brake can be readily transformed into a silencer with the addition of a specially designed shroud,"

    Which Sig was making AND MARKETING with the gun. IDK if the shroud was going to come packaged with the gun, but to the ATF marketing a brake with a shroud that combined can make a suppressor is classified as "readily available."

    Link to article cited:
    https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/201...lds-atf-classification-muzzle-brake-silencer/

    Since the Chinese company selling these muzzle brakes isn't marketing a shroud of any sort, then it's not readily available. If also owning a hacksaw, files, a belt sander, and a drill press constitutes as "readily available" then we're all felons because we all could make a machine gun out of our AR-15's.
     
  20. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    These things are legal, as they're not threaded, shouldered or otherwise designed to accomodate a tube. To make them into suppressors, you'd have to either turn down the body leaving a step and then thread the front for a cap in some fashion, or externally thread both ends for collar nuts to retain a tube. One could weld a tube fore and aft, but that's true of any brake.

    That said, aside from a couple of them that would be OK for .22 LR (like the one bottom-center in JMorris' post that essentially is a rip off of the Gemtec G-Core), in most applications monocores just don't work that well, and especially not very simplistic designs like most of these "brakes". I spent a lot of time, money and effort playing with monocore designs, finally had to accept that there's just no way to make them perform like stacked baffles.

    I don't know what sort of parts you purchased, but a threaded Ti D cell tube will run $70-$100 by itself, and then you're $20-$35 ea for machined baffles (7-10 for a decent .30 rifle can), plus end caps. Yeah, you can put together a stainless or aluminum housed freeze plug can for a bit over $100, but expect to be more in the $300-$400 range with Ti tube and good stainless baffles.

    My 1.5x8" Valkyrie and 1.5x9" Furtivus have almost $100 in raw materials each with gr 9 Ti tube and 17-4 bar stock for baffles, end cap, rear mount and muzzle brake.



    I respectfully but emphatically disagree. If it were that easy and that cheap to do F1 stuff that's "just as good as the high end cans", there'd be little market for the production stuff. Even with the "best" commercial form 1 bits, there's a lot to be desired compared to professionally manufactured cans. It's not just about dB reduction; weight, size, finish, durability, POI shift, mounting system. If one is happy with their screw-together Ti tube & 316L stainless direct thread can, fantastic, but it really doesn't compare to a production model with fully welded 17-4 SS or 718 Inconel baffle stacks, QD or taper mounts, etc. that has been developed over multiple iterations with minor & major changes to aperture size, clip, spacing, blast chamber size, brake style and so on.

    Don't get me wrong, I absolutely encourage the F1 crowd. And properly researched with a decent budget, some of them come out pretty good. But ultimately, unless the builder has decent machining equipment and skills, the F1 will come out behind in more categories than not compared to a commercial model.
     
  21. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I just bought the tube and turned the rest myself. I hate internal threading and I'm old and cranky enough that I may never have the patience to learn to do it well. So I threw money at the problem. Works for me.

    Trading length for effectiveness is the F1 compromise. My can is 10" long while my two commercial cans are a couple of inches shorter. Direct thread is likely the only kind of can I will ever own. There's no POI shift if the same can stays on the same rifle all the time. And both my commercial cans are user-serviceable as well as my F1 because I shoot a lot of subsonic cast lead bullets and I need to be able to clean them. Fully welded is a feature I pay extra NOT to have.

    You are almost certainly correct that it probably won't meter as well as a >$1000 commercial can, but chances are pretty good it will come within a few dB. Modern silencer design is an incremental game where the industry is long past the point of diminishing returns. I'm not operator enough to hear the difference, so good enough for me.
     
  22. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    That makes a big difference. The overwhelming majority of form 1 guys have a hand drill or maybe small drill press, are having to use production "solvent trap cups" or form freeze plugs caveman style. If you have a capable mill & lathe, there are very few things you can't make yourself for peanuts compared to production, and of comparable or better quality, as long as you're not valuing the time spent machining. But what you were able to make from $30 or $50 worth of bar stock costs the guys without a lathe $200+. However, it just doesn't make sense for (or generally appeal to) a person to invest in a lathe and all the tooling just to build a couple of cans. So most guys are gonna have to decide if the DIY pride and some savings is worth it to them vs. the refinement of production cans that are, as you noted, gonna meter similarly in a smaller, sleeker package with (usually) many more mounting options, and a warranty.

    I would tell the average F1 builder who doesn't have machining equipment, only typical garage tools, that a decent sounding rifle can with a Ti tube & SS baffles is gonna end up in the $500 range by the time it's built, engraved and Cerakoted/Duracoated to where it will look good and have a durable finish. Of course one can save money using an electro pencil and rattle can paint, or building with a heavy SS tube, aluminum baffles, etc., but I'm talking about a nice F1 build that suppresses well and holds up decently while not being a dumbell on the muzzle and screaming F1 literally and figuratively.
     
  23. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Some of those coned freeze plugs I’ve seen on SiencerTalk look surprisingly good. I’ll bet if you stacked up enough of them it would make an OK can.

    The place where F1 really shines is 22 LR. It’s not too hard to make 22 quiet because what you lack in sophistication you can just make up for in volume. My 22 can sounds exactly like my Spectre II,..but it’s an inch longer and about 30% fatter.

    I used an electro pencil on all my stuff, but at least I used a pTouch label as a guide. I don’t really care how it looks. And as far as rattle can finish goes, it depends a lot on what’s in the can. I imagine stove paint might do OK. Or maybe Brownell’s baking lacquer.
     
  24. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    It's more the durability; they're soft, low quality alloys, and they're stressed & stretched from the forming process. A machined 17-4 cone can be 3 times stronger at half the weight. I did one freeze plug can just for shiggles and gits, and to demonstrate to myself what I already knew. It didn't even survive one magazine on the .308 machine gun, baffles went soft and turned between the spacers. In contrast, my Valkyrie with .050" thick cones and .030" skirts can handle back to back magazines of .308 @ 850 RPM from a 13" barrel.

    The high temp BBQ paints and header paints will take the heat, but they're not chemical resistant and scratch/chip easily. If one doesn't care about the blemishes and won't be using harsh cleaners, spray paint is fine. Some of the bake-on gun stuff similar to Duracoat holds up pretty well, though, as long as you don't mind your home smelling like an industrial facility for awhile!
     
  25. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Or a mini 14 and a shoelace or a few inches of string...
     
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