Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by ZGunner, Sep 27, 2012.
Bottom line, are they all the same shotgun wearing different stocks and barrels?
Not exactly. The Express - and the Tacticals I have seen are basically Expresses with different do dads added - has a lot less final polishing and fitting. It works, but it is built to compete at a price point. And it employs several MIM (molded) parts where the Police and Wingmaster utilize forged and machined versions. Some police versions have a stronger magazine spring and I am thinking there was one more part I can't remember at the moment.
There is only one 870 and the differ only by finish furniture and a couple small parts. The internal parts difference in the EXpress is only $6 less then the Police and Wingmaster. That is for the MIM extractor.
Internal parts may differ, but the receivers are pretty much the same, with the above caveats.
A Wingmaster is smooth and slick when operated.
The express felt rough compared to the hairloom wingmaster. I assume locking lugs of some sort (I'm not familiar with 870s) and the contact points on the pump assembly.
This could just be that the Wingmaster was a lot older, worn in, and perhaps better polished to begin with. On the other hand, the chamber was very obviously smoother than the Express's, which would explain the 'sticking bolt' complaints I've heard about new Express models. That tends to clear up when someone stops using steel-based shells or polishes the chamber up.
My Wingmaster is just as smooth as my Express.
I love the 870 shotgun. I just wish they cycled the steel hulled Federals better. I have had mine polished and even had the chambers recut by a gunsmith. They still hang up sometimes. My Benellis each the Federal steel hulled shells like candy.
Remember the Remington 700 ADL? It was the exact same weapon as the CDL or BDL except it had an inexpensive synthetic stock and no floor plate. Same rifle but without the beautiful stocks on the CDL and BDL. The only reason the ADL went away is other manufactures were cutting into Remington's market share and they needed a cheaper version to complete at the lower end. The came a series of 710 7 this and that and who knows what is next. But those are not 700's. The entry level 700 is now the 700SPS and it is every bit as good as any 700.
So much of this is "Marketing". For Example: The Remington Special Purpose is simply the same applied matte finish as the Express but the metal is polished more before the application. I learned this by asking why the same barrel labled Special Purpose was $40 more then the exact same barrel labeled Express. Man that is a lot of polishing. If you look real close at both barrels you can even tell the Speical Purpose finish appears smoother. Like that matters. Here is a case of a buyer thinking he is getting a better finish when it is still the same Express finish.
Much of the pricing at Remington would drive you up wall if you did not know why. For example: The 18.5" Matte finish bead sight Express barrel retails from Remington for $131 and this is the barrel that comes on the Express HD 4+1 and used to come on the 6+1. Yet, the 18.5" Parkerized bead sight barrel that comes standard on the 870 Police retails from Remington for $101. Yep, the Express barrel cost $30 more then the Police barrel.
Now I am having fun. That 18.5" Parkerized Police that cost $101, get that in 20" Parkerized bead sight and it is $150. However, the 18.5" Bead sight blued Wingmaster barrel is $150 and if you get that barrel in 20" it is $117. Anyone confused yet? And yes, these type of difference occur all through the Remington parts list as I purchase over 60K in parts alone each year with a high of over $80K in 2009 thanks to O'boma so I know the parts list very well.
Now for the answer. It is a combination of Marketing and units manufactured. At least that was the answer I go when I was at Ilion. So with the facts above sinking in to some of you who can't accept the Express, the Police and Wingmaster as the same weapon I invite you to look over the Remington parts list. For Example: Stipped Parkerized Police receiver $247. Stripped Express receiver $247. Stipped Wingmaster receiver $247. Express breech bolt $97, Police Breech bolt $97, Chrome Wingmaster breech bolt $97. and of course there are only two forend tube assemblies made, one for the Super Mag and one for all other 870's and there is a $5 difference in the trigger plate assemblies between the Police and Express as one if polmer and one cast aluminum but all the parts are the same, every freaking one but a little black spring, but the Wingmaster cast aluminum trigger plate is $84 same as the Express. If you built a 4+1 police and 4+1 Express with the bead sight barrels and with the exact same stocks the 4+1 Express would cost you $26 more to build the 4+1 Police. See any Marketing here?
Stripped down to the receiver group, it's possible to put together almost anything you want as far as a pump shotgun is concerned with an 870 receiver. Furniture, barrels, sights, accessories, magazine capacity, name it and it can probably be done (with enough money anyway). It's like the Lego set of shotguns.
The ADL never went away. They are not cataloged, but are all over the place in most of the big box stores such as Walmart, Sportsmans Warehouse, and Dicks. The blue versions with a cheap scope are around $350, $480 in stainless. Much better choice for only a little more money than the 770.
I own new and well worn examples of express and police 870s.
I purchased an express a few years ago that surprised me. I disassembled to clean it before I shot it like we all do I found 2 small burrs that I was able to remove with a light file and sand paper. These 2 small burrs might have been caught in a police build maybe not. They might have affected the way the gun performed maybe not. One burr was on the bolt. I guess I am just obsessive but man that express eats everything I feed it.
mechanically I think they're all the same.
As for the Wingmaster being smoother. Yes, out of the box. The internal of the Wingmaster receiver is blued and this is smooth from the get go in the receiver channels the action bars slide in. All forend tube assemblies made have the same finish except of course for the Marine. So what little contact occurs inside the receiver is between the action bars and those channels. With a parkerized or matter finish weaopn this area become smoothed out with round count. Soon there is not difference between the feel of your Wingmaster and an Express or P model. So a guy shooting an older Wingmaster with a high round count is naturally going to say it is smoother then an Express. But once that Express has the same round count they are the same. They have to be people. Same exact parts.
If you want an un-smooth 870 get the Marine. I don't know how many rounds it takes to smooth one of them out. I hate that model and stopped building them as Parkerizing is just as good in that enviroment.
). I'm definitely no expert by any means, I've just seen a few things along the way. But there's still lots more for me to learn - if anything, I'm a student, not an expert.
Why the barrels are not interchangable like the rest.
I took my Wingmaster and two of my Expresses out today. I fired 25 rounds of AA Winchester brass loads through each gun. No problems. Every gun fired perfectly.
I then tried the Federal steel based rounds you buy at Walmart for $23 for 100 rounds. Immediate problems in the Wingmaster and one of the Express guns. Sticky chamber. I have to slam the gun on the ground to eject the round.
I think the bottom line is that the 870 has problems with steel base shotgun shells. Both the Wingmaster and one Express had the chamber recut and polished. Then, I did AIP's steel wool polish job.
My Benelli M2s eat these rounds by the thousands.
See if http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=268616 answers your questions - if not, elbow us and we'll try again
Sorry was grilling and came back to answer this and did not noticed it was answered.
Separate names with a comma.