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870P Higher Quality, But Necessary?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by FlaMike, Dec 1, 2005.

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  1. FlaMike

    FlaMike Member

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    I have been researching the Remington 870 as well as the Mossberg 590 for about a month now. From reading the posts here and elsewhere, I now know the differences between the 870 Express & Police, and the 590 & 590A1 models (springs, internal finish, barrel, safeties, trigger gaurds, ect).

    I had decided to spend the extra cash for the 870P or 590A1 but cannot find either locally. Called 20+ gun shops within 50 miles. I've heard everything from "the police model can only be sold to LE personel" to "Mossberg stopped making the A1". I know these are not true, just uninformed sales clerks. Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to be a market for the 870P or 590A1, at least in Central Florida.

    So, to make a short story longer, I have this question: Are the upgrades/ improvements in the 870P and 590A1 really necessary? Are heavier barrels, metal trigger gaurds, ect even necessary for a house gun that won't be used outside (other than outdoor range practice) or are these small differences really the details only noticed and talked about amoung firearm enthusiasts like the fine folks here on THR or TFL?

    I realize you get what you pay for, and I was ready to buy the better gun, but will the more "popular" models serve me just as well or should I just order online, do a transfer and wait it out? Any input is appreciated.

    Mike
    Lake Mary, FL
     
  2. BozemanMT

    BozemanMT Member

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    I have an 870P, and i looked at them all.
    the express scream cheap. they feel cheap, and they are cheap. I'm sure they work fine, but I"m a gun snob and I want something pretty.
    I had a friend who wanted an 870. he was all hooked on the Express, then he took a look at wingmaster. 1 sold wingmaster.:rolleyes:

    the P is definately better built than either, better metal, better fitting, etc.
    Does it really matter?
    Probably not, they probably both work fine, but the P is the better built gun.
     
  3. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    A Wingmaster is a really nice gun, but I like my Express better when it scrapes around in the bottom of a muddy boat.

    On my purchase list: Wingmaster Classic Trap. At the range, I can baby the thing and keep the finish nice.

    The Express feels solid to me, really "no frills", but solid. This is not true of other inexpensive pumps. 870s in general are very reliable.

    The thing about a defensive gun is that you will essentially never shoot it (unless you compete in 3-gun or something). An 870 can handle hundreds of thousands of rounds. If you shoot clays, this matters. But for defensive purposes, I'd be most concerned about how fast and reliably I can shuck it.
     
  4. AStone

    AStone Member

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    870P for me

    FlaMike, I'm in Bozeman's camp. My user name should have been Nematocyst-870P, but I went with the shorter version.

    I just got my 870P yesterday. I joined this forum last summer looking for advice on one. Like you, I looked at virtually everything out there.

    As soon as I picked up an 870P, I knew that was the one. Everything else just fell out of the race.

    I'm NOT saying that an express won't do fine for you, but I tend to go for the higher end stuff (guns, trucks, knives, sound gear, kayaks, backpacking equipment). We get what we pay for.

    Having said that, I'm sure the express would serve you well.

    I had an opportunity to buy an express months ago, but waited until I had the cash for the 870P.

    I just got it out of the box last night. Haven't even cleaned it yet, but I'm glad I waited. What a solid gun.

    There was one in my local gun store for months, but it had the Speedfeed stock with extra shell storage. I didn't want that stock. I wanted a solid, synthetic speedfeed, bead sight, no mag extension: Remington order # 4403, so had to look for a source.

    It took me weeks to find it, but - now that I've got mine :p - I'll tell you where to locate one if you're interested in the same one. Last time I checked, they had three in stock. I got one, so two left.

    Territorial Supply, Council ID 800-221-7702.

    Great folks. Very kind, very fast shipping. Mine got here (ID to OR) in 4 days.

    Good luck with your choice.

    Nem
     
  5. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    The Express finish is not the best, either. The 870P is parkerized, right? Better choice for throwing under the bed and forgetting about it. The Express needs periodic oiling if you don't want rust.

    The Express is a field gun and an ideal one in many ways - cheap, durable, pointable, quick and decently-balanced.

    The P is a better HD gun in various ways.

    But when the word "necessary" gets tossed around, it's tough to say anything is "necessary."

    I'd prefer "superior for the purpose" or "worth the extra money for what I want from it".

    I'd rather have a P for its purpose, a CT for trap, a Wingmaster 20/26 for upland, and Express 12/28 for duck. But there's no 870 I wouldn't be happy to shoot.:)

    Last night I shot 25 again with my cheap 870 Express, and nothing would discourage me from throwing an 18.5" barrel on it for HD and counting on it.

    Depends on your budget and your priorities.
     
  6. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Yes, correct.

    I agree, ArmedBear.

    Nem
     
  7. Black Majik

    Black Majik Member

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    One thing I'd like to note on the express is that you can definitely tell a difference in finish between the parkerized finish of the Police model vs. the Express model.

    The express finish just doesn't seem durable.

    But... the express will, and can do anything and everything the Police or Wingmaster can.

    Is the Police or WM model necessary? Of course not, but it sure is damn nice.

    Even my HD gun is a old beat up wingmaster that I got cheaper than a Express, but dang, the gun is smmoooootttthhhhh. :D
     
  8. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    Just when my 870 is starting to fall apart (literally), a thread like this comes along.

    Add an 870P to the long list of guns I really want, but can't afford right now :(
     
  9. charby

    charby Member

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    you have an 870 that is falling apart? The furniture or the action?
     
  10. Black Majik

    Black Majik Member

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    that sucks to hear mark, im curious in the story also.

    Hmm... you in Alabama now? No more LA and Westwood? :D
     
  11. pezo

    pezo Member

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    I'm so with you on the "cant find the 590-a1" I had a local dealer order one not last sunday but the sunday before, I havent heard a word except last monday he said he was having a hard time finding one. TOld me to call friday. tomorrow I'll see. It seems dealer's do not have a deal with mossberg which is causing the difficulty.
     
  12. axeman_g

    axeman_g Member

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    suggestion

    Look for a 870 SP Magnum ... it is a parkerized, 3" capable wingmaster. Much better IMHO then express or 870P. Nicer furniture, rem chokes and wingmaster action with super durable finish.
     
  13. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    Yep, here for Grad School. I'll be a Bruin on Saturday though!
     
  14. NMshooter

    NMshooter Member

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    Mark, you might consider the Wilson/Scattergun Technology rebuild program.

    You send them your shotgun and $300, and you get an 870 rebuilt to their specs.

    Their new stuff is not worth the money they charge, but that rebuild is supposed to be well worth the money.

    As for the 870P, the difference between it and the Express is very noticeable.

    Unfortunately, so is the price.

    You really have to be willing to pay to get good stuff.
     
  15. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    [​IMG]

    It's just minor stuff, but it feels like each time I shoot, something falls off.

    The barrel clamp bolt/Sling attachment wore out, so I kept shooting off the barrel clamp. I removed the entire extension and replaced the original endcap. Since I dremeled out the dimple and don't have a barrel with that little detent in it, the endcap nearly worked itself off while shooting. One time, I think I almost shot the barrel off. :what: I eventually replaced the barrel clamp bolt with a nut&bolt from Home Depot.

    The Rear pin spring has worn out, so the rear pin keeps popping out on its own. I've lost two already so I have electrical tape over it now, but I removed it before I took the picture. I'd buy a new one, but Remington wants the cost of 5 boxes of ammo to replace it. I can live with tape on my 870 if it means more practice. Besides, it gives it the well used/loved look :D

    The butt stock is now loose, but I don't have the tools with me to tighten it up.

    The only thing I can really blame on Remington is the cheap rear pin spring. The other stuff is my fault. The point does remain that I feel my basic $200 Express just feels cheap, even when compared against my Mossberg 500 Persuader. Neither one seems all that solid compared to their big brothers.

    I'd sure like to get my hands on an 870P though.
     
  16. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Dood, this is so sad.

    I'm about ready to begin a collection to get you a new shotgun.

    If it happens, I'm good for $10. ;)

    Nem

    PS: Grad school? What you studying?
     
  17. marklbucla

    marklbucla Member

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    Thanks for the thought!

    I'm studying Applied Statistics at the University of Alabama. Hopefully, I'll be done in 2 more years. When I'm done, my visa into Free America will likely be revoked by the fiancee and I'll probably be dragged back into Los Angeles. :(
     
  18. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Hey, cool. :cool:

    I have an MS in probability theory & mathematical statistics (= how to derive t-tests, regression, ANOVA, etc)

    The most fun stuff was not 'normal' (AKA Gaussian 'bell' curve = <yawn>), but gamma, Weibull, beta & lognormal distributions.

    Those latter is where you'll find most of reality. (But deriving parameter estimators for them was a b****h.)

    A word to the wise: the concept of 'normal' is a delusion perpetrated by a science & mathematics elite characteristic of the 20th century for the purpose of subverting outliers.

    Don't believe it.

    Recommendation: pay particularly close attention to lognormal, which contains the power law distributions, including "1/f".

    Get that degree, get yourself a new shottie, and break free.

    ;)

    Nem
     
  19. meh92

    meh92 Member

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    Nice to have... certainly

    Necessary... no

    The differences between the various offeringss of 870's are not much. None of the "upgrades" are necessary for a basic HD gun. However, the 870P will not come with the silly breakage-prone J-lock safety. That alone is worth the extra cash for the "P" in my book.

    If you can afford the police version then I say go for it. If you can't, you will still be armed with a formidable weapon.

    For the record, my HD gun is an 870P with factory rifle sights, a Remington +2extension, 4-shot side-saddle, and Speedfeed 13" LOP stock. I am luck enough to get a substantial discount from my local dealer sine I'm the Remington armorer for my department. That made the 870P affordable enough for me to choose it over a wingmaster, express, or HD model.
     
  20. johnrobe

    johnrobe Member

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    How about the FN Police shotgun? If you search this forum you'll find that folks have a high opinion of them and they're not so hard to find like the 870P.
    CDNN sports has them on sale now for $270 (MSRP is $399).

    http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_police.htm
     
  21. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    In Central Florida, you might consider the Marine Magnum.

    In a humid envionment, the most important thing about a HD shotgun, IMO, is that you can ignore it for 6 months and not find it covered in rust when you do grab it.

    You will probably oil a hunting or trap gun more often, so it's less of an issue.
     
  22. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    The little 1/2 circle pin retainer clip is the same price as the pin - about $3 .

    A new barrel clamp is about $10 and a cheap philips screwdriver is a couple dollars .

    I think the gun may be worth fixing ! :neener:
     
  23. AStone

    AStone Member

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    Johnrobe, interesting. First I've seen of those.

    It appears to be built on an 870 frame, but the safety is in the wrong place.

    Anybody?

    Nem
     
  24. johnrobe

    johnrobe Member

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    There's an earlier post about the FN shotgun here:

    http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=159881

    FWIW, I ordered one and will pick it up this weekend. It will be a Christmas present for my brother, so I won't get to shoot it until after the holidays.....maybe. :evil:
     
  25. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I believe it is a Winchester 1300.

    FN, Browning, Winchester guns (USRA) are all at least partially owned by Herstal. The whole ownership of these brands can be mysterious and seems ever-changing. I believe Olin (Winchester ammo) still owns the rights to the Winchester name and licenses it to USRA.

    Word seems to be that Winchester's rifle quality has gone downhill, even getting a surprising "don't buy" rating from Gun Tests lately, but the 1300 still gets their "our pick" rating. Get one before they screw them up, too, I guess.:(
     
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