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9 mil confusion

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by NorthBorder, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. NorthBorder

    NorthBorder Member

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    I've been loading for several years, just not 9mm. Never needed to. But now I have decided to because I have lotsa brass, bullets, and powder. Using Lee Pacesetter dies.

    Lee 2nd shows a COAL of 1.090 and max load of 4.8 gr HP38 (4.5gr 231). For copper plated, the COAL is 1.142. A 124 gr Lead has a COAL of 1.095 and a max load of 4.0 gr 231.

    Lyman 50th only shows a 124 gr JHP with a COAL of 1.060 and max 4.5 gr 231.

    Hodgdon data on line shows a 124 gr (probably a berrys bullet by the notation) with a COAL of 1.150 and a max of 4.4 gr HP38. Now, thats a long bullet. I guess I am most inclined to follow Hodgdon data since it is their powder I am using. But that just seems like a long bullet.

    Berry's website isn't specific. It says to use either jacketed or lead data if I am reading it right to load their bullets.

    And it kinda irks me that I am getting a roll crimp with the seating die.

    Does anyone else seat their 9 mm bullets out that far?
    Should I invest in a Lee taper crimp die?

    Any insight or suggestions would be muchly appreciated.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  2. Hugger-4641

    Hugger-4641 Member

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    You can't bank on the listed coals being right for your gun. It should be a good max that should work in any gun, but not always the case. Plunk your barrel and let that tell you what coal to use for each bullet. Going a little shorter is not going to hurt, neither is going longer if your chamber and mag like it. If the bullet cycles manually and stays secure, you should be fine.
     
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  3. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Don’t over think it!
    Seat bullets to approximate factory ammo.
    Crimp just enough to remove the necessary flare of the case mouth to allow easy, smooth seating of the bullet.
    Check that the loaded ammo “plunks” into YOUR barrel.

    I’ve shot MANY pounds of HP38/Win 231 with 115-124gr jacketed and plated bullets.
    Start with 4.0 and work up to 4.6. You’ll find a “happy spot”.

    Ive tied (equaled) perfect scores in PPC using cast and plated bullets loaded with Lee dies.
    “It’s the Indian, not the arrow “.
     
  4. twarr1

    twarr1 Member

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    1.150” is a pretty common length for 9mm. I seat to that length regularly with no issues in several guns
     
  5. Bcwitt

    Bcwitt Member

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    Sometimes it is advantageous to shorten the over all to facilitate a firm crimp, depending on bullet profile. Feed ramps might enter the picture also.
     
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  6. stillquietvoice
    • Contributing Member

    stillquietvoice Contributing Member

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    Cols are what worked with their test media. Barrels have different throats, Freeborn before the rifling starts, some require shorter coals. To confound matters bullet profiles aren't the same. A round nose from one manufacturer can be different from another's. Rmr type small ball the rounded edge is the same diameter as the bearing surface, compared to an fmj round nose that is sloped more making it longer, but a smaller diameter at bearing surface junction. The fmj type can have a longer col because it won't contact the rifling due to its smaller diameter. It's confusing, I know.

    I loaded 2 different round nose 125 gr 9mm bullets one was more like an fmj the other was a small ball type. The fmj col I used was 1.140" worked fine, plunked in my Smith 5904, but the small ball type wouldn't had to shorten it to 1.100" to fit my chamber.

    Start with the longest col first and plunk test then shorten if it doesn't until your cartridge fits.
    With 9mm, the case is relatively small with a fairly high operating pressure iirc 35kpsi, the shorter your col the higher the pressure, approach max loads slowly especially if you have to load toward the shorter end of saami specifications.
     
    Cemetery21 likes this.
  7. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Lee- There are two crimp shoulders in our pistol Bullet Seating Dies. The first shoulder applies a slight taper crimp and the second shoulder applies a full roll crimp. The closer the die is adjusted to the shell holder the heavier the crimp will be.
     
    Skgreen, kcofohio, Demi-human and 2 others like this.
  8. res45

    res45 Member

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    The Lee 9 mm bullet seating die has the taper crimp already built into the die, if you're getting a roll crimp you have the die body adjusted down too far and are over crimping. Back the die way off and take a sized unflaired case and run the ram all the way up and adjust the die body down till you feel it touch the beginning of the taper crimp then back it off a half turn and lock the die down. Then you can seat your bullet and apply the crimp separately, which is what many do as a second step or get a Lee factory crimp die and apply the taper crimp with it, which is what I do on my Lee four hole turret press.
     
  9. 243winxb

    243winxb Member

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    Finding COL in 9mm & 45acp types that headspace on case mouth.
    Fully Chambered. The FL sized empty brass and a loaded round should measure the same from muzzle to case head. This tells me if the bullets diameter is to large for the barrel throat. Had a 9mm throat measuring .3568" it would not chamber correctly with a .357" bullet. Bullets needed sized to .3562"

    full.jpg

    Makes sure rounds fit the magazine & feed.
     
  10. dcloco

    dcloco Member

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    Every bullet from every manufacturer, might/probably will have a different COAL.

    Ask the bullet manufacturer about COAL for your application.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  11. lordpaxman

    lordpaxman Member

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    I suspect you mean a long round? Different bullets, and I mean projectiles, will have different OALs, which when seated to the COL will determine the seating depth. 9mm is a high pressure round. For a given component combination, shorter seating depths will increase the pressure. You need to do a plunk test to determine what your gun’s max COL can be and then back that off. If it’s shorter than the published data, you need to adjust powder accordingly, or choose a different bullet.

    Going shorter than published data is outside the lines. It doesn’t mean you can’t, but you should really know what you’re doing before you do. “A little shorter” is relative, with an Uber fast powder like Titegroup you can be in the kaboom region of the pressure curve. Good luck.
     
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  12. kcofohio
    • Contributing Member

    kcofohio Contributing Member

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    Seating depth is what mainly determines the powder charge amount. At the depth is determined by the profile of the bullet and the "plunk test", what fits your barrel(s).
     
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  13. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    That.... and that... ^^^

    As was mentioned, every 9mm bullet is different. My suggestion is to find a bullet from a major supplier that is regularly available, work up your own data for your pistols to determine it meets your accuracy and reliability requirements, etc, and stick with that bullet. After years of frustration with 9mm loading, that's what I've distilled it down to. It's great if you can find data for that specific bullet, but if you can't, you will have to improvise, using data for a similar bullet. You're right, COL is the tricky part... find out what works in your pistols, first, then using starting data, work up to where you want to be.

    Personally, I load my 9mm bullets out as far as I can. My particular 9mm pistols seem to like it, and I don't have feeding problems. Looking at my notes, however, the longest seating OAL I have is for Berry's 147's at 1.145", a longer bullet than their 124's, for sure. Note that the Hornady data you cite is for a hollow-base, truncated cone bullet (If I'm reading the hieroglyphics right) and not a normal RN profile bullet.
     
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  14. higgite

    higgite Member

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    Are you pulling our collective legs?
    Lee Pacesetter dies are rifle dies. They don’t come in 9mm Luger configuration.
    Do you know the difference in bullet types? FMJ vs JHP vs plated RN, for instance? The COLs that you quoted are all over the place and obviously for different types of bullets.

    If you’re serious, it would be helpful to know what bullet you’re using.
     
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  15. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    I go by what the bullet maker says as a maximum seating depth recommendation - it's their bullet, they should know - ignore the powder and case maker's recommendations - not their bullet - and for COL/COAL I use my chambers as the final arbiters of minimum seating depth. Then, whatever plonks in all of my guns and isn't seated deeper than what the bullet maker says, is what I use for my target COL. As long as my COAL is +/- 0.005" from that target, I'm typically good to go.
     
  16. NorthBorder

    NorthBorder Member

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    I did fail to mention the bullet type. A Berrys 124 gr plated target hp.
     
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  17. chamokaneman

    chamokaneman Member

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    I was just loading some Berry's 124 grain RN today. When I first loaded them I must have used the Hornady data too, would have to look at my notes. I remember thinking they seemed SO long compared to the Lee cast I have to seat to 1.085 but the 1.150 plunks just fine in both of my pistols.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  18. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    I use Lee collet crimp dies on pretty much every Dillon 650 head I won. There price is reasonable and they do an excellent job!

    As for the specifics of the load I would say load up 10 of them and take them to the range. Don't over think it.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
  19. Atavar

    Atavar Member

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    My baby Beretta Nano likes em long. I loaded up a bunch of LRN at 1.165-1.17 and they plunk and feed nice and shoot great.
    8CA0C22F-A715-4E2B-800D-AA6E3C8367E1.jpeg
     
  20. mdi

    mdi Member

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    For a newer reloader; start with the data for a bullet with the manufacturer's recommendation (I have reloading manuals from the manufacturers of the bullets I use the most). Plunk test. For plated bullets I use similiar shape and weight lead bullets' data. Plunk test. With no manufacturer's data, I use a similiar weight, shape and construction bullet's data from another manufacturer (I use a lot of RMR 124 JHPs and I use Nosler data for their 124 JHP). Plunk test. Not all guns have the same chamber dimensions (I have 4, 9mm pistols , 3 close enough to use one OAL, but one, my Masada requires a slightly shorter OAL (.007")...
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2021
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  21. NorthBorder

    NorthBorder Member

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    I had to find what length my XDS could handle and with the shape of this bullet it was about 1.1" so I worked a load using 4.1g HP38 and a COAL of 1.085. It chronyed at about 1000 fps when I didn't get errors on the chronograph. My 1911 and PC9 can handle an OAL of 1.15" no problem but I don't want 2 sets of data for plinking loads and I don't want to measure each load. This allows me to load using my disc powder dispenser. I'm typing fast so I might be a little incoherent. Sorry.
     
    GeoDudeFlorida likes this.
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