9 vs .38Spec?

[Mn Fats]

I hope I can remember all this while I'm being mugged.

 

[jar]

I think if it was that simple, there would be no caliber wars. As far as I can tell, no one has been able to correlate real world data solidly with simple metrics like mass, diameter, amount of expansion, and energy unless the differences are extreme.

Put another way, there's probably good data to show that .25ACP isn't as lethal/effective as .357Mag, but there doesn't seem any good data showing that 9mm is better than .38Spl when it comes to stopping threats.

IMO, the decision between 9mm and .38Spl should be made based on aspects other than terminal ballistics. Things like: revolver or semi-auto, moon clips or speedloader, practice costs, etc.

One other factor is all the data has to be sample size. Over the last half century or so the really smaller calibers like 22, 25 and 32 have fallen out of favor as a carry option and so when we look at the real world instances are simply far fewer than with the 38 to 45 spectrum. The really larger calibers above 45 are also few in the real world data.

But over the longer run even the smaller 22, 25 and 32 rounds were carried and used and considered adequate. Frankly I do not want to get shot by any of them.

 

[HB]

Pressure and velocity aren’t linear. I’m not sure why anybody even mentions pressure.

38<9<357

The main reason a 9mm is “better” is because you can get 17 in a 36oz gun instead of 6 38s.

If you need to shoot larger animals or shoot past 50 yards, 357 in 6” barrel starts really making sense.

 

[Fiv3r]

It's just too difficult to quantify something when there are so many extraneous variables qualifying the choice.

Case in point, personally, I just don't shoot single stack small 9mm guns well. I find them overly snappy and most of the grip angles hit my hand in a weird spot and are uncomfortable. I actually prefer a micro .380 over pocket 9mm.

So I shoot .38 special from an aluminum snub nose better than I shoot a pocket 9mm. I can practice more and get better hits despite the better performance on paper of the 9mm. But wait, there's more. I shoot a 9mm steel frame snubbie much better than a .38 aluminum frame snubbie. OK, so 9mm snub nose is king of my SD stable, yes?

Well, despite its rougher finish, I find the .45 Charter Arms Pitbull I just bought to shoot more accurately and more comfortably out of a gun that weighs only a few oz more than my 9mm LCR. So, I dont really miss the snap and report of a 9mm revolver.

So all this anecdotal meandering is only based on what I shoot better and totally ignores the ballistic performance.

In a full size gun, I prefer the 9mm to the. 38. Out of a 4" barrel the pros of capacity, ballistics, and shootability out weight the .38 special. Factoring in the advanced bullet technology of the 9mm seals the deal for me until you get to .357 levels.

 

[John Joseph]

At the minimum it depends on bullet type and barrel length, then powder would be another consideration.
A .38 can have a flatter meplate than most semi autos will tolerate, and a flat meplate is good.
OTOH the .38 needs a lot of steam to expand---short barrels seldom burn powder as efficiently nor generate the velocity required to expand a hollow or soft point reliably, unlike 9mm Parabellums although 9mm ball IMHO isn't an improvement over .38 LRN
Whichever caliber you choose, feed it good ammo.
Accuracy and bullet placement can atone for many shortcomings

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I think if it was that simple, there would be no caliber wars.

... and also no gun forums.

As far as I can tell, no one has been able to correlate real world data solidly with simple metrics like mass, diameter, amount of expansion, and energy unless the differences are extreme.

Put another way, there's probably good data to show that .25ACP isn't as lethal/effective as .357Mag, but there doesn't seem any good data showing that 9mm is better than .38Spl when it comes to stopping threats.

IMO, the decision between 9mm and .38Spl should be made based on aspects other than terminal ballistics. Things like: revolver or semi-auto, moon clips or speedloader, practice costs, etc.

I think John has the right of it. Look at the Marshall and Sanow data. There's a correlation and causality problem there, even if you accept their numbers at face value. Shootings are so individualized that it's likely impossible to ever say that caliber was the determining factor. There's no way to collect data on shootings and hold all significant factors constant other than caliber. Even if you could... it's the projectile, not the caliber, and getting data on the ammunition used in the shooting for a statistically significant number of shootings is likely impossible. Plus, the best shooting data would probably come from law enforcement, which means that data on the use of revolver cartridges and shorter-barreled pistols would be hard to come by.

I will say that my only reservation on the oft-mentioned 130-gr. .38 Special Federal HST is that speedloading it will be difficult given that the loaded case profile is basically the same as a full wadcutter.

 

[StationOps]

Not sure if I missed it, but there's also this essay. https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Basically any bullet can incapacitate somebody, but two hits is better (and avoiding the smaller rounds) against a determined attacker.

 

[Pat Riot]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I have seen or heard one of these 9mm vs .38 discussions. I could probably buy a nice pistol or revolver with the money. It would be a 9mm or a .357, of course.

 

[jski]

A more appropriate consideration would be 9mm vs .357 due to the bullets being the same diameter ...

What? The .357 and .38 Special have exactly the same bore diameter. As a matter of fact, one of the most common bullet selections for the .357, the 158 gr., is also the one of the most common for the .38 Special.

BTW, the 9mm has a .356" bore diameter.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

This is so funny and like so many caliber wars. You get on the merry go round, read all the post, then end up at the same spot, get off and and wait a month and take the ride again.

(By the way jski, I like your avatar of Wilson. one of my favorite characters. I know all the quotes from the movie. Like "You mean I will kill him, if you have too")

 

[Labguy47]

What? The .357 and .38 Special have exactly the same bore diameter. As a matter of fact, one of the most common bullet selections for the .357, the 158 gr., is also the one of the most common for the .38 Special.

BTW, the 9mm has a .356" bore diameter.

My point being you can shoot a 9mm safely through a .357 all day without damaging the firearm. I’m not gonna say the same for a .38

 

[Texas10mm]

My point being you can shoot a 9mm safely through a .357 all day without damaging the firearm. I’m not gonna say the same for a .38

What? Do you even own a gun?

1. 9mm won't work in almost all .357 revolvers.
2. Since 9mm is shorter than .38 Special any damage that a .38 would cause would also be caused by the 9mm.

 

[jar]

What? Do you even own a gun?

1. 9mm won't work in almost all .357 revolvers.
2. Since 9mm is shorter than .38 Special any damage that a .38 would cause would also be caused by the 9mm.

9mm won't even get far enough in any of my many 357s to allow the cylinder to close. The 9mm has a tapered case that is way wider than the 357 straight walled case. They jess don't mate well folk.

 

[Jim Watson]

What? The .357 and .38 Special have exactly the same bore diameter. As a matter of fact, one of the most common bullet selections for the .357, the 158 gr., is also the one of the most common for the .38 Special.

BTW, the 9mm has a .356" bore diameter.

We have two problems here.
The first is the Common Internet Fault of calling Groove Diameter out as "bore diameter."
The second is the fact that it isn't so.

The SAAMI specifications for 9mm P and .38 Special/.357 Magnum are THE SAME. .346" bore diameter, .355" groove diameter.
Tolerances are so large as to make even that meaningless, foreign 9mms tend to run large - I have read of Berettas at .359" - and will do well with .38 Special diameter bullets if the chamber neck will accept a round loaded with .358". This sometimes shows up as keyholing with cheap .355" bullets.
Back when Colt made good revolvers, their .38s were appreciably smaller than Smiths. (Yes, I know the Python is said to have a tapered bore, not what I am talking about for regular Colts like OMM or Shooting Master.)

 

[Labguy47]

What? Do you even own a gun?

1. 9mm won't work in almost all .357 revolvers.
2. Since 9mm is shorter than .38 Special any damage that a .38 would cause would also be caused by the 9mm.

Incorrect with moon clips you can shoot 9mm out of most .357 revolvers safety. And the reason is about case pressure being near equal to .357. You keep referring back to bullet size which has me wondering if you have a gun. Everyone knows you can shoot multiple shorter bullets out many guns such as .327 can also shoot 32 H&R magnum, 32 long, and 32 short. Another popular one is .22lr .22 long and .22 short.

 

[Jim Watson]

Incorrect with moon clips you can shoot 9mm out of most .357 revolvers safety.

Not without doing some reaming, you can't. Not with .357 guns and ammo like mine, anyhow.

 

[Labguy47]

 

[JohnKSa]

Standard .357Mag revolver and standard 9mm ammo? That's interesting.

I just tried this in one of my .357Mag revolvers and none of the rounds came close to chambering. The one that went in the farthest was still a quarter of an inch from seating properly and the one that went the shortest distance in was over 0.3" from seating.

Measuring some of the 9mm ammo I have on hand gives a cartridge diameter (before the rim) of 0.385" as compared to 0.376" for .357Mag.

Poking around suggests that 9mm has a maximum specified diameter (before the rim) of 0.391" vs. 0.379" for .357Mag.

That seems like a pretty significant mismatch in the general case.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

 

[earplug]

The platform the cartridge is fired from, can make a difference in effectiveness.
Many shooters can obtain more, faster, accurate hits with a pistol which would not be possible with a revolver given equal practice or range time. If the 357 was the magic bullet it wouldn't have left town.

 

[Labguy47]

My Taurus was set up for this from the conception, the others that it works on have a recessed cut in from the lip of the cylinder and the hammer has a spur to strike the primer like my old S&Ws.

 

[SharpDog]

The Feds have selected the 9mm so it is the Uber caliber for self-defense that can not be beaten by any lesser caliber (sneer)

Seriously, if it was me I would have gone for a medium .40 but I guess their letter got lost in the mail.

I think the .38 spl invitation was never sent.

Many, many folks deem themselves well-defended with a 5-shot j-frame .38 spl and a speedloader or two. For me, I can get a superior caliber with more modern bullets and no need for reloading to get to a 15 rd. count. With faster reloading beyond that. While a .38 spl revolver can exhibit great accuracy, that is normally not in a j-frame and so will be larger than a similar semi-auto.

Bottom line is that you can be well-defended with all these calibers if you practice with them. After that, it's mostly personal preference. JMHO

 

[Texas10mm]

My Taurus was set up for this from the conception, the others that it works on have a recessed cut in from the lip of the cylinder and the hammer has a spur to strike the primer like my old S&Ws.

You have one of the FEW revolvers that will do this, chamber 9mm in a .357 cylinder. Now, please explain how you think that shooting .38 spl in a .357 cylinder damages the gun.

 

[mcb]

Almost any modern double action revolver can be converted from 38/357 to also shoot 9mm. TK Custom and a few other revolver gunsmiths will run a 9mm chamber reamer into a 38 Special or 357 Magnum revolver along with cutting the cylinder face and star for moonclips. When finished the revolver will safely fire 38 Special and 357 Magnum (Assuming it was a 357 not a 38 to begin with) with or without moonclips and 9mm with moonclips. The only caveat being that if you shoot really hot 357 Magnum or 9mm +P you will likely have case sticking issues. An option if your looking for flexibility at the sacrifice of pushing the power.

 

[Jim Watson]

True, but...
You have to really want the capability. TK charges $300-$350 for the machine work and $80 for ten clips.

The Taurus Triads with compromise chambers seem to be out of production.
Taurus now offers the model 692 an L size seven shooter with quick change cylinders like a Korth.