9mm 124 Grain HST Underpenetration?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by LookAtYou, Jun 3, 2022.

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  1. LookAtYou

    LookAtYou Member

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    What is 124 Grain HST street record? According to official FBI ballistic testing, HST is on the extreme low end of the FBI penetration standards. Sometimes not even making it. I know it expands awesome, but is it truly optimal, as penetration is above expansion as far as priorities? FBI themselves say they prefer 14-16" if possible. I really like the Winchester Defender 147 Grain JHP.

    Here, in clothing testing, it hits 13"
    Screenshot_20220603-124957.png

    In bare gel test, 11"?
    Screenshot_20220603-124941.png
     
  2. CodeSection

    CodeSection Member

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    Can you provide the link to those two listings? Or at least enlarge the bottom one so that it is easier to read? Thanks!

    FWIW, I carry a Federal 147gr HST +P in my P365 BUG. I carry a Federal 180gr HST in my P229 .40 and carry Winchester 230gr Ranger-T in my P227.
     
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  3. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Is it optimal? Depends what you're goals are. If you want a rapid drop in blood pressure from a single hole, you probably want one that makes a large exit wound. But we frown on that type of thing because of all the innocent children that tend to congregate directly behind bad guys.

    So, the next best thing is a big ragged hole in the vitals, which stops just before exiting the skin of the BGs back. Hopefully creating lots of blood lose into the thoracic cavity and quickly preventing effective respiration.

    But if you're worried the 124gr HST isn't penetrating bare gelatin far enough, I suggest moving to a cooler climate, where all the gelatin blocks wear shirts that will result in deeper penetration. Though at the cost of some reduction in expansion.

    Alternatively, you could buy Speer Gold Dots, which in a 124gr do penetrate farther.
     
  4. Ethan Verity

    Ethan Verity Member

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    Those numbers do look unusually short, sometimes not even hitting the 12" minimum. That's unusual for HST, I would question if these tests were done with properly calibrated gel blocks.
     
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  5. LookAtYou

    LookAtYou Member

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    Type in "Law enforcement tactical hst chart" in Google images, and you'll see it. I don't think there's a website the chart is from, at least from my quick search. The 9mm results are from a G17.
     
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  6. LookAtYou

    LookAtYou Member

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    I prefer Winchester Defender 147 Grain JHP. Great penetration, bonded, and great quality.
     
  7. murf

    murf Member

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    here is one record:

    i use xtp bullets, but these work well, imo.

    murf
     
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  8. LookAtYou

    LookAtYou Member

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    What numbers do you think it usually gets? Can you link a test you view as "official" of the 124 grain HST?
     
  9. Tinman357

    Tinman357 Member

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    Liked that video. I laid in 2 one thousand round cases of this stuff. During the panic times. :what: It impressed me. Still does. It's my go to for 9mm.
     
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  10. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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  11. LookAtYou

    LookAtYou Member

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  12. CapnMac

    CapnMac Member

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    Well, it actually just gives different results.

    Different media give differing results, whether that's oranges to tangerines rather than apples to artichokes is a different debate.

    That 10% gel is a pain. The spec requires it be used between 60° & 65°F (it will go rancid at a "room temperature" of 72°), and it has a storage life of about 8 hours after being mixed. And the water used has to be to spec, too. Get the 10% gel 5°F above 65° or below 60°F and the results become inconsistent even in ballistics gel.

    The clear gel is far more forgiving, which is why so many "home" experimenters prefer it.

    Poplar is not Ash nor Pine, but if you stick to one, and not mix it up with the others, you get one result, and not a mix of results.
     
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  13. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    I'm curious where you got this information because it is completely wrong.

    Unfortunately the Clear Gel vendor apparently makes unannounced changes to the formulation, which means results aren't consistent.
     
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  14. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    marksmanship > "bullet performance"

    Anything that lands between the shirt-pockets is terminal.
    Everything else, not so much.
     
  15. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    The HST 124 grain has an excellent reputation in real shootings. It's a very widely used police round and if it had under penetration issues it would be widely known.
     
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    So....124 gr HSTs are now....inferior, because of someone's gel test results?

    What does that make every other premium 9mm JHP? Magically potent? Handguns, which are woefully underpowered for the job, regardless of the load, can now be dissected and hair split for effectiveness?

    You do what you want. I'm going to continue to carry them, because I know my gun runs them well, and I have a lot of them. If I am ever in an armed encounter, I will get as many good hits as possible. I will keep shooting until the threat is down and motionless, disappears from view, or I run out of ammo. You know what I would do with any other 9mm JHP premium hollow-point? THE. EXACT. SAME. THING.
     
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  17. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    If you are using Firefox, hold the "Ctrl" button down and tap on the "+" sign several times. When done, hold Ctrl and hit the zero to return to normal view.
     
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  18. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    Here is a link to the manufacturer data, you can easily compare and see it:
    http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

    Yea, 124 HST falls short of 12'' in bare gel, so does 124 Gold Dot.
    147 gr. HST and Gold Dot make it to 12'' in bare gel.
    Arguably result in bare gel might be more applicable in FL than heavy clothing, as nobody is wearing heavy clothing around here.

    Here is manufacturer data for Winchester:
    https://winchesterle.com/-/media/Project/WinchesterLE/PDF/Handgun-Bullet-Barrier-Testing-Protocol_2016.ashx
    I've got 127+P+ Ranger T and performance of it looks very good; I'd be carrying either a Glock 17 or 34 so the velocity should be there.

    People might be surprised at how 380 Ranger fails to penetrate, way short of 12''. 9mm minimum for me.
     
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  19. Mosin77

    Mosin77 Member

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    As I understand it, gel is a touchy thing and not all lots/temperatures/mix ratios will produce the same results. However, the individual tests still have some merit because if one guy is doing them (presumably to a consistent standard) then one can at least see how one load compares to another in his own testing. None of these gel blocks are a human body and human bodies have numerous variables of bones, clothing, odd angles, not to mention the prosaic question of shot placement or accuracy anyway.

    Gel is just a way to compare the relative expansion and penetration of different rounds in a common medium. It works a lot better than wet phone books, or pine boards.
     
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  20. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    I have a lot of HST and Gold Dots put away, but I am starting to accumulate solid copper fluted bullets and will eventually replace JHP’s in my carry guns. I’m talking about the Underwood Ammo XTreme Defender ammo.

    Go to page 32 on this report. It’s pretty clear what the most consistent SD round turned out to be:

    “The Underwood XD uses the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense Technology bullet. They are the same bullet and in some cases Underwood uses slightly higher pressure which produces more velocity. The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. There is one main characteristic to XD performance.... Velocity. The faster this round goes the larger the wound diameter. We tested the 9mm XD, 9 +P, 9+P+ and the 357 SIG in multiple tests in gel and tissue. That’s 4 of the exact same projectiles with the only difference being velocity. The wound channel size increased exactly in proportion to increase in velocity. Unlike hollow points which are designed for a certain impact velocity to best perform as designed, the XD always works better when faster.
    The data sheet shows results from Phase 2/3 with enormous wound diameters. The radial flutes work perfectly in fluid/gel. Calculated PWCs are the largest ever recorded in all calibers!
    Many of our testers wondered if vectoring real compressed tissue sideways into tissue would actually destroy that adjacent tissue that is not directly in the path of the projectile. For those who think this will only work in a non-compressible fluid like gel as we initially did, we can confirm that this technology works extremely well in actual animal tissue with or without barriers. Remember that hollow points expand because tissue which fills the hole in the hollow point is compressed to such a point that the outward pressure inside the bullet pushes and tears the metal and forces it outward where friction then takes over to complete the expansion. If tissue can be compressed to the point of tearing metal (hollow point) then tissue can certainly be compressed to the point of tearing tissue. The Phase 4/5 tissue tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points.
    a. Penetration. All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 – 20 inches with and without barriers.
    b. Reliability and Consistency. Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested.
    32

    c. Barrier Performance. The XD round, the 5.7 mm rounds and FMJs were the most barrier blind rounds tested. Not only did barriers not deflect the round it didn’t change the wound diameter much and only slightly reduced penetration depth. XD Barrier degradation was approximately 5%.
    d. PWC. In the Phase 4/5 realistic tissue tests the XD produced the largest wound areas and with the incredible penetration depth exhibited in the Phase 2/3 gel tests the XD recorded the largest overall PWC in all calibers. As noted the PWC numbers are inflated in the Phase 2/3 gel tests due to non-compressible gel, but the penetration depths are more realistic to compare.
    Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data. In continued testing this round became the most measured and compared round in this test. We had more XD data points than any other round. Because the XD relies so heavily on velocity the results showed that the 357 SIG, 10mm and 9mm were the best calibers in this round followed by the .45 and then the .40, the exact opposite of the hollow point results.”

    https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=31110&d=1538934056

    These rounds are not cheap…and I agree JHP’s have a good track record. But lots of folks been stopped by FMJ’s too. So educate yourself and choose what you want.
     
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  21. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    That report is a bunch of BS.

    The inaccurate jargon gives it away.

    The bullet's wounding effects are very simple to describe: the bullet has ribs that cut soft tissues as it penetrates. The flutes propel the soft tissues radially away from the wound track, creating a slightly larger temporary cavity diameter than produced by an expanding JHP bullet (softball diameter vs. baseball diameter). The temporary cavity can cause the cuts in the soft tissues to tear, which increases permanent disruption. There's no magic involved nor is there any need for inaccurate pseudo-scientific jargon to explain the mechanics of wounding, other than to dazzle the unsuspecting with BS.

    Ordnance gelatin does not accurately depict the wounding effects of this bullet because the temporary cavity, by itself, causes the gelatin to tear. Thus the wound "channel" produced in gelatin is not an accurate depiction of the bullet's wounding effects.
     
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  22. Buzznrose

    Buzznrose Member

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    Believe what you want. I don’t believe this is a made up report…as far as I know it is real and from 2016.

    The results said the solid copper projectiles showed the most consistency…does that surprise you? It really makes the most sense to me.
    I’d suspect FMJ flat nose to also be pretty consistent, but round nose FMJ can deflect pretty easily, and I’d think the grooves will n the XP’s would help stabilize the round.

    we all know bullet manufacturers look for the Goldilocks JHP, the one that expands a lot while still penetrating sufficiently. And a JHP is really designed for a certain velocity, are they not? Too fast, and they open like a parachute and slow down too fast. Too slow and they don’t open up and act like an FMJ and “over penetration” is an issue in some cases.

    the XD bullets don’t clog, don’t over-expand…they just work. The videos are pretty revealing if you haven’t watched them. Military Arms Channel has a few really good ones.
     
  23. CodeSection

    CodeSection Member

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    Thanks, guys. I never knew about the "Ctrl", "+", and "zero" functions. I was able to download higher resolutions so that when they are enlarged, they can be read.

    https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/WinchesterRangerAmmo.gif

    https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Federal-Premium-Tactical-HST-Ammo-Comparison.jpg
     
  24. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    Here's just one example that shows this report is complete BS:

    Skin is only a factor when the bullet exits the body. The bullet crushes skin tissue as it enters the body, just like any other soft tissue, and there's no difference in penetration resistance. However when a bullet encounters unshored skin when it attempts to exit the body, the skin stretches, and acts like a trampoline. Skin may retain the bullet inside the body just underneath the skin, or skin may stretch to its limit and then tear, allowing the bullet to exit, creating an exit wound. (The tears in skin can be folded back to their original positions and very little tissue is missing.) Only when UNSHORED skin stretches, can it present as much as 4" of penetration resistance as typical soft tissues. If skin is shored at the exit point (by something like a bra strap, belt, seat back, etc.), then the bullet simply crushes the skin and passes through it instead of stretching it.
     
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  25. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    If we're talking about humans, that's consistent with everything I've seen on the topic.
     
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