9mm ammo "come a long way"

[improperlyaged]

I have heard many times that the 9mm has "come a long way" from the 9mm ammo used in the Miami shootout. I want to know exactly what was this old technology? What were the 9mm hollow points that gave the 9mm such a bad rap?

 

[BLB68]

115 grain Silvertip hollowpoints from a quick google search.

From this article:

" He hit Platt in the chest as Platt was climbing out of his car. Dove’s 9mm bullet caused Platt to suffer what was later described as a “non survivable” wound. Unfortunately, even with a collapsed lung and with blood pooling in his chest, Platt continued to fight."

 

[mavracer]

I want to know exactly what was this old technology?

in the '80s JHPs were nothing more than lead poured into a jacket. The jacket was tapered so as to be thinner at the nose to help expansion.

Now days we have learned to skive the jackets (thin cuts in jacket between petals) and reverse taper (the nose and base are thick and the thin part is where the petals fold) the nose to make bullets expand easier and more consistant without over expanding. We've also learned to bond the lead core to the jacket to keep them together.

 

[Tirod]

We were going thru a significant change in what was carried - the majority of LEO's were converting from .38 revolvers to polymer 9mms, and the 1911 had just been phased out for the M9.

American shooters don't take to change lightly and along with other social issues felt the fabric of their life was threatened. The new kid on the block got blamed for it and sides lined up to debate why there was need for a change at all. Since there wasn't a major increase in "knock them down" power and thugs weren't standing on their feet dead, expectations fell short. It would have taken power levels equivalent to .50AE with recoil the same as .22 to make an impression on some. Many just took it as an opportunity to chest thump and identify with the social group they thought ranked higher. "Survivors" of the discussions frequently overstate how bad the 9mm was because they think they won and can write history.

No, not so much. 9mm is here to stay and is the dominant LEO, service, and concealed carry round.

 

[improperlyaged]

in the '80s JHPs were nothing more than lead poured into a jacket. The jacket was tapered so as to be thinner at the nose to help expansion.

This is closer to what I wanted to know. I was wondering though if we still see those bullets of yesteryear. I was primarily wondering what those bullets looked like. I always kind of figured Remington's UMC 115 grain JHP that come in bulk were an example of the older hollowpoint design. Maybe Winchester white box JHP. Something along those lines.

 

[mavracer]

I always kind of figured Remington's UMC 115 grain JHP that come in bulk were an example of the older hollowpoint design. Maybe Winchester white box JHP.

While I think even they've changed a little yes they are still pretty much old technology. I think Corbon still uses some Sierra bullets in some loadings and while Sierra makes some very accurate bullets they shed their jackets easily especially at Corbon velocity.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Great thread so far.

This absolutely gets an "excellent" in the "rate this thread" drop-down.

Well asked question without leading, un-partisan answers without speaking over the average reader's head.

Great job all.

I never really gave up on the Nine and am happy to watch its resurgence in a great part to what's been noted in this thread.



Todd.

 

[JTQ]

"Energy dump" was the theory of the day in the 1970's and 1980's. Lightweight, shallow penetrating rounds designed to dump all the energy into the target.

After the Miami shootout, the realization came that penetration also played a role in creating stops. The most common defensive 9mm bullets weights became 124 gr (the original weight of the round) and 147 gr, rather than 115 gr and even the 90 gr rounds used in the 1970's & 1980's. In addition, even the modern lighter weight bullets, and the 124 gr. and 147 gr. bullets of today have been designed to penetrate deeper than the common defensive rounds of the 1970's and 1980's.

 

[mavracer]

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

Is a good read and the basis of current FBI ammo testing that has lead to the developement of the better ammo we have today.
Handguns still suck to actually stop folks but they all suck less now.

 

[Skribs]

My 9mm ammo was manufactured on the east coast and I live in WA, so it's come a long way...oh, wait...

I think the cheaper hollowpoints are good for range use and for testing JHPs in your carry gun, and are probably servicable in larger calibers. After all, the same paper that is why we have the premium ammo that has "come a long way" is why people switched to .40 or kept their .45 in the past. They worked with yesteryear's technology. Whether your .45 ACP is much improved with premium ammo is for another debate (or a ShootingTheBull410 video).

As far as 9s go, I think you are best off with appropriately penetrating ammo, but the Remington UMC JHP or Winchester White Box stuff is good for making sure your weapon can handle JHPs. For example, if I were testing a new carry gun, it would go something like this:

Test 1: FMJs to get comfortable and break-in the gun
Test 2: Run a full load of JHPs through each magazine
Test 3: Run a full load of the defense ammo you have selected

Say you have a new Glock 19 and you're testing it with 15+1. You may be looking at doing 6 magazines for $30 with the bulk stuff, whereas you might end up doing 3 magazines for $50 with the premium stuff.

This might not be exactly where this thread was going, but I think that's why you still see some of the older style JHPs produced: for training purposes and for use in .40+.

 

[ATLDave]

Skribs, there's also the factor that conventional JHP of cup-and-core design are often more accurate (or perceived as such) than FMJ's. Heck, Hornady and Sierra both make match JHP ammo that is not even intended as defense ammo... just very accurate ammo. So that would be another reason to make making old-tech JHP ammo.

 

[splithoof]

Skribs, that is EXACTLY how I evaluate what given load I may use.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

We were going thru a significant change in what was carried - the majority of LEO's were converting from .38 revolvers to polymer 9mms, and the 1911 had just been phased out for the +M9.

Tirod, can you clarify this, please? IIRC, the Glock was introduced around 1986(?) and was an abomination for its polymer frame. Did you simply mean the majority of agencies were going to 9mm??

Sam

 

[RecoilRob]

Back before the FBI Miami shootout the 'accepted science' was the RII or Relative Incapacitation Index or something to that effect. I've searched online and can't find much about it now...so I wonder if it's been scrubbed because it proved to be SO wrong or my Google-foo is just weak?

Anyhow, they fired every bullet into gelatin and measured the temporary cavity and declared that whatever made the largest one was the superior round. As already mentioned, deep penetration was not prioritized in the least...and actually thought to be a negative IIRC. Oh...how wrong they were!

But until the puzzling results of that shootout in Miami were analyzed that was the prevailing theory that 97% of all ballistic scientists agreed with. (OK..I made that part up, but the parallel with the current Man Made Global Warming thing just seems too much of a coincidence). The Winchester 115 Silver-tip was one of the nastiest bullets around and did very well on the RII making a huge gory hole...but it was a shallow one and just didn't get deep enough in the badguy to stop him as quickly as that same shot with something that penetrated better was likely to have. I think bullets are 'smarter' now and won't under-penetrate in a similar situation. At the worst, they'll fail to expand and just act like ball which guarantees deep penetration so at least you've got that going for you.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Everything was about speed. 125g .357 was considered the king of the street ammo. So everyone figured if you got a round moving fast it would replicate that. But revolver JHP worked better. The other hot item was Glazer safety slugs. Which were very shallow penetrating frangible ammo. Supposed to be one shot stops.

After the failure in Miami there was a brief period where everyone decided to go to heavy bullets. The problem was they did not have the construction ability to make them open at slower speeds. So they just went zipping through like ball ammo. That was pretty much the final straw for everyone going to .40.

 

[C0untZer0]

The bullet that a coroner determined to be the primary cause of Michael Platt's death in the 1986 Miami shootout - was the 9mm Silvertip fired by agent Jerry Dove.

The 9mm Silvertip, created a wound in Michael Lee Platt that the coroner determined Platt wouldn't have survived even if he'd received immediate medical attention.

The issue with the 9mm round in the 1986 Miami Shootout was not an issue of bullet weight or caliber, a failure of the bullet or a failed bullet design. The issue was that of improper requirements.

The Winchester Silvertip performed the way it was designed, the primary requirement that it was supposed to meet was to not over-penetrate, and the Silvertip didn't over-penetrate.

The main failure in that situation is that the agents were equipped with a bullet designed primarily not to over penetrate when they needed bullets which penetrated 12" - 14" through various barriers (criteria the FBI later developed).

If Jerry Dove had been shooting 9mm FMJ, Michael Platt would have died instantly. But the FBI didn't want their agents to have 9mm FMJ as was evidenced by the fact that they issued them Winchester Silvertips.

 

[C0untZer0]

I believe the Illinois State Police were using the 115gr Federal 9BPLE +P+ round in 1986 and it was racking up an impressive record of being effective in the field. The Illinois State Police continued using that round until 1999.

 

[tipoc]

We were going thru a significant change in what was carried - the majority of LEO's were converting from .38 revolvers to polymer 9mms, and the 1911 had just been phased out for the +M9.

The above is sometimes repeated on the internet but is incorrect. The conversion by the late and mid 1980s was to steel and alloy framed semis and was well under way by the time Glcoks arrived in the U.S.

The guns that led the way in the transition from revolvers to the semi-auto in law enforcement in the U.S. were the "Wondernines" the S&W third gen pistols, the Berreta M92 and the a few offerings from H&K. The transition first went here, it was still underway when Glocks arrived in the U.S. and Glock accelerated it.

Glocks showed up in the U.S. about 1986 or so (Glock is celebrating it's 30th year in the U.S. this year) but in small numbers. They first caught attention as the guns that could not be seen in X-Ray machines. This free publicity helped there sales greatly. By the end of 1986 over 1,000 requests from law enforcement agencies in the U.S. for free samples of the gun for examination and testing had been received by Glock sales reps, so they claimed. Sales began to rise slowly afterward and then quickly. By the early 1990s Glocks began to be adopted by law enforcement in large quantities, especially in 40 S&W caliber.

By the time of the Miami shootout, 1986, the transition to the 9mm from revolvers was well under way. Most departments, that had switched to semis carried either the Beretta M92 or any of several S&W pistols offered in 9mm. S&W pistols dominated the law enforcement market along with their revolvers at the time, with Beretta following second and H&K behind. Glock did not lead the way in this.

The FBI in Miami carried S&W 9mm pistols and the M13 revolver. It was FBI Agent Edmundo Mireles who killed both Platt and Matix, both already fatally wounded, with shots from a S&W .357 revolver loaded with +P 38 Spl. 158 gr. LSWCHP loads. Which was the FBI's preferred loads for the M13.

The 9mm Silvertip round which struck Platt hit him from the side, penetrated his right bi-cep, entered his body and penetrated his right lung (collapsing it) and stopped about an inch from his heart, expanded. This left him with only minutes to live unless he received immediate medical attention. He could also still fight on until then. That's what he did, until Mireles shot and killed him with a 38 Spl. from feet away.

The reports on the Miami shoot out are available online. The time frame of Glocks arrival in the U.S. and the pace of the transition to the semis from revolvers are also well documented.

The Silvertip round was greatly improved on over the decades that followed.

tipoc

 

[Skribs]

Skribs, there's also the factor that conventional JHP of cup-and-core design are often more accurate (or perceived as such) than FMJ's. Heck, Hornady and Sierra both make match JHP ammo that is not even intended as defense ammo... just very accurate ammo. So that would be another reason to make making old-tech JHP ammo.

Fair point.

CountZero, there are plenty of people who still think that a round that overpenetrates did its job inefficiently. This is the "energy dump" argument, in that the goal is transfer all of the energy from the bullet into the attacker. If you have 2 bullets that have 500 ft/lbs of energy, and one stops in the target and the other exits out the back, one dumped 500 ft/lbs into the target and the other significantly less. For handguns this has been proven to pretty much be irrelevant, but at higher velocities (i.e. 2000+ FPS) dumping energy can cause increased effect.

 

[BSA1]

Glocks showed up in the U.S. about 1986 or so (Glock is celebrating it's 30th year in the U.S. this year) but in small numbers. They first caught attention as the guns that could not be seen in X-Ray machines.

That is not true. How can steel parts like the barrel, slide and smaller parts used in the frame for the frame not show up in a X-ray?

This was hyperbole used by the anti-gunners. Remember gun bans were being pushed even back then.

 

[tipoc]

Yeah I know that it's not true. The point is it was free publicity.

By 1985 Glock was making headway in the military and police market in Europe and this caught the eye of both the pentagon and U.S. Intelligence agencies as a new gun maker with a new type weapon. Particularly when Syrian dictator Hafez Al-Assad ordered Glock 17s for his personal body guard. (Specially engraved guns were sent to Assad by Glock). Muammar Gaddafi toured the Glock factory also caught the eye of the CIA.

Neil Koch, the Defense Department's civilian Chief of Counter Terrorism acquired a sample of the G17 while in Europe. He disassembled it and disguised the barrel and slide as something else, placed the ammo in a plastic pouch and placed them in his suitcase for the trip home. He was able to get through airport security and an X ray machine without issue. This was in late 1985. (This was later tested and other guns were able to be slipped through airport security as easily. More a lapse in the security than an invisible gun.)

On January 15, 1986 Jack Anderson and his partner Dale Van Atta ran an item in his nationally syndicated newspaper column that stated that Libyan dictator "Gadaffi is in the process of buying more than 100 plastic handguns that would be difficult for airport security forces to detect." They denounced this as "crazy", "Once it's in his hands, he'll give it to terrorists throughout the Middle East." They followed it up with other articles.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=IVgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5008,6848519&hl=en

This was the first big news about Glocks in the U.S. Few people new much of anything about them. There was no internet then. Only "Soldier of Fortune" magazine had done an article on the Glock 17. It was mostly unknown even to shooters.

The gun was denounced by some in Congress and law enforcement. It was dubbed "The Hijackers Special". Newspapers and magazines ran front page articles on the space age gun. The network news covered it. Congressional hearings were called. Gaston Glock was called in to testify. Legislation was drawn up to ban plastic guns. Hundreds of law enforcement agencies wanted samples of the wonder gun to investigate. Gun magazines wanted samples to test.

It was a p.r. mans dream. It was all free publicity. Once the initial hoopla blew over Glocks were selling like pancakes. Then came Die Hard the movie in 1988 with the ceramic terrorists gun and it was all over but the shouting. The Glock was famous and a hit in the movies.

tipoc