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9MM confusion/ penetration/ barriers

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by tackleberry45, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. tackleberry45

    tackleberry45 Member

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    So in keeping with strong conversation about the supposed issue of 9mm being the entry level in terms of stopping power I put some theory to the test.

    - CZ75B
    - Winchester PDX1 124+p

    vs.

    1973 Chrysler

    The 9mm, the round that is supposed to have penetration issues, had NO problem going through windows, doors, or tires on this old battle tank car of all metal. I will be posting pics soon. So much for the pentration against barriers issue.
     
  2. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    9mm is not know for this problem, .45 is.
     
  3. PRM

    PRM Member

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    You just experienced the real world VS Hollywood myth.

    We teach a couple of Officer Survival Schools each year and one of the exercises we do is have junk cars hauled to the range to demonstrate what is cover and show penetration.

    1. We start by having officers sit in the front seat and engage targets shooting through the windshield (safety goggles and hearing protection mandatory). There is no deflection of the round traveling through a windshield with duty caliber ammunition (.38 Special, .357 Magnum, 9mm, 45 ACP, and .40.)

    2. Next, we have targets placed inside the vehicle(s) and as the officer(s) approach (normal unknown risk traffic stop), the command gun is given. The officers engage through the side glass, body metal,through the rear glass and trunk. Most rounds zip right through the glass, metal and seats and strike the target. Exceptions are a few structural components or obstructions in the trunk.

    3. Last, we shoot through the doors at targets. Same results.


    The only thing in a vehicle that will reliably stop a round are the metal wheels and engine block.
     
  4. withdrawn34

    withdrawn34 Member.

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    True, but one also needs to consider how much energy is expended by going through various vehicle panels/upholstery/components/etc. Does the round still have enough energy by the time it strikes the target? A piece of cardboard will show a hole even with a weak hit.
     
  5. HK Jake

    HK Jake Member

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    That's not actually the point, at all.

    Just about every common handgun caliber will penetrate through doors, glass, walls, etc. The issue is what happens to the bullet after it penetrates the barriers; does it keep its shape? Does it suffer jacket/core separation? Does it penetrate to 12 inches? Does it plug up and act like a FMJ?

    These are the issues that most 9mm loads have, and it's one of the reasons why .40 S&W is still so successful to this day in LE circles; the 180gr .40 S&W penetrates barriers and retains enough energy to still penetrate deeply into a person and expand uniformly just as well or better than any other common handgun caliber/weight.

    Do modern 9mm loads perform through barriers? Sure, sometimes it does. Does .40 S&W do it better? Most of the time, yes.
     
  6. PRM

    PRM Member

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    The issue is what do you choose for cover. Yep ~ the round is going to be degraded some by whatever it passes through, but I personally don't want something penetrating my body 10 inches, 8 inches, 6 inches, 4 inches...miss-shaped, FMJ or whatever. The metal skin on most cars is pretty thin stuff.
     
  7. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    10+ years ago we did not have the modern ammo for the 9mm. Mostly all that was available was std ball ammo. Now with modern ammo it does not give up as much to the other rounds but it does give up some. But for HD you have to be very aware of over penetration. HD and Law enforcement have different requirements. Most LE require the ammo to meet the FBI spec. Not necessary for HD.
     
  8. psyshack

    psyshack Member

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    A 9mm will kill folks that are shot while in a car.
     
  9. 918v

    918v Member

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    The issue is what the round does in the intended target. You don't want to issue a round that only penetrates 4" of human after traveling through a windshield. While you may think this is adequate to stop YOU, it is totally inadequate for self defense in most cases.
     
  10. PRM

    PRM Member

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    Never said anything about what is adequate to stop someone ~ if I was going to debate that, we would be talking rifles. Never said anything about issuing rounds. I said cars are poor cover. Commonly used handgun rounds will penetrate them easily, and I personally don't want to be penetrated to any depth.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2011
  11. Nushif

    Nushif Member

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    My biggest problem in the case of a shooting like that would be how I would defend my case, if I had the guy in cover and instead of getting out of there ... I continued shooting.
     
  12. 918v

    918v Member

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    A guy who takes cover after having just shot at you continues to pose an immediate threat to your life.
     
  13. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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  14. skeuthan

    skeuthan Member

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    Unless you are an L.E.O. or live in your car, don't use the Win PDX for defense. The Win "Ranger-T and Federal "HST" are the best protection rounds that I have tested to date. If for some reason you require a bonded bullet then PLEASE, by all means buy the Speer "Gold Dot". Not only do they offer the best expansion and weight retention of the bonded rounds, they are only apx. $5 more per box than the PDX. I'm quite certain that the F.B.I. selected the PDX more because of price and availibility than tactictal performance. I even heard a "Rumor" that Winchester developed the PDX line in order to procure the VERY lucrative government contracts..
     
  15. eam3clm@att.net

    eam3clm@att.net Member

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    As PMR posted the body panels only provide concealment not cover, except behind the engine block. Also keep in mind that if you were to shoot at a moving car, the car will continue to move if you hit the driver. If he is dead the car is not being controlled and could hit someone. We are trained not to shoot at moving vehicle for this reason and it is our departments policy not to shoot at moving vehicle in self defence situations unless you have exhausted all other means of escape (someone trying to run me over). If you are involved in an altercation with a subject who is actively using a gun and has the forthought to use cover as well in the assault on you, you might want to get the h-ll out of there or at least find your own cover.
     
  16. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    The FBI went from GoldDots to the PDX1.

    Of course they did. What's the problem?
     
  17. Ben86

    Ben86 Member

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    Cool, but what does that have to do with stopping power? In other words what does that have to do with stopping a human from functioning in a quick manner?.22 LR can penetrate cars, that doesn't mean it has good stopping power.

    Don't worry though, 9mm has plenty of stopping power. I do consider it a baseline, but a comfortable one. Especially with 124 grain +P.
     
  18. AZ Hawkeye

    AZ Hawkeye Member

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    ...There is no such thing as "stopping power," especially when discussing handgun calibers.

    You want stopping power? .50 BMG has over 12,000 ft-lbs KE; THAT is stopping power!
     
  19. JAV8000

    JAV8000 Member

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    I have full faith that my G17 loaded out with 18 DoubleTap 147 gr. 9mm+P gold dot JHPs moving at 1150 fps will get the job done. This is entry level .357 performance with a reliably expanding bonded core bullet.....18 times over. Modern, as in just the past few years, bullet and poweder technology has moved the 9mm from a so-so level defensive round to one capable of standing with any of the "big boys".
     
  20. NMGonzo

    NMGonzo Member

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    I don't know ... I carry mine and I am not going to be shooting anyone sitting in no car.
     
  21. KimberUltra

    KimberUltra Member

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    A bullet is a bullet. If it penetrates 3 inches or 100 inches 9 times out of ten it'll be lethal or make a BG stop. 7 bullets that penetrate 3 inches is no walk in the park even for big bastards.
     
  22. Apocalypse-Now

    Apocalypse-Now Member

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    no surprise here. still looking forward to the pics though, those are always entertaining lol :)
     
  23. gofastman

    gofastman Member

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    Simply 100% untrue
     
  24. REAPER4206969

    REAPER4206969 Member

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    Three inches is not generally lethal. Three inches on a fatty is not even at the muscle yet.

    You need 12" minimum, preferably 15" to insure lethality at all angles.

    The next time you're at Wal-Mart, look around and you'll see why 18" has recently became desirable. Pretty soon we'll be carrying hard cast solids...
     
  25. AZ Hawkeye

    AZ Hawkeye Member

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    And how do you know you won't be shooting out your own window at a potential carjacker with a gun?
     
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