gudel
Member
another caliber war. What the hell, buy them all, I did.
9mm is cheaper & performs well, 45 is more proven, why all the agencies going 40S&W??
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gudel
Member
ah Double post
and then you did
marketing got you again, do you have any evidence,didn't think so. You herd it some where and now you are repeteing it as fact.male bovine fecal matter
I'v chronoed doubletaps 230 golddot from my amt backup 3" ported Bbl. 875 fps. 45s got more oomp no matter what Bbl length.its simple physics 45 has more surface area for pressure to work on.
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actually barrier penetration is better with the bigger bullets the likeley hood of bullet deflection due to angles of the barrier is greater.bullet design has probly played a bigger roll in the perpitation of this misinformation.If you ever notice most 9mm and 45 fmj are round nose which also leads to deflection.most 40 fmj are truncated cone.the 40 has benafited from 80 years of bullet gun developement ie. all 40 JHP have been designed in the last 20 years. with modern performance ammo there is as much difference within each caliber than between them.
I have 9mm,38spcl,357mag,10mm,44 mag,45acp and 45 colt.give me a good reason I need a 40.
.357 magnum
Member
Ok here we go!
After re-visiting this thread I just had to come back in and stick up for Finalcut. If any of you gentlemen think the 9mm is better then the .40 in stopping the BG, then you are living in a sheltered world. Also calling the .40 short and weak, is like saying the .45 is trumped by a .17 hmr. I own all three calibers. After much research, a year and a half ago I decided to get a .40 and learn to shoot it well. It was the hardest caliber of the three to learn to shoot well for me. But well worth it. Just go ask anyone in LE that uses the .40 everyday in the line of duty. You will find out real quick that the 9mm is not a better stopper then the .40!
Their are so many very lethal rounds in the .40 cal, sometimes it is hard to name them all. In reality the .40 and .45 are much closer to each other in stopping power. I still prefer the .45 because I shoot it better. But if told me that five minutes from now 3 coked up BG were coming in my house and here ya go Frank-- your choice-- take your 9mm loaded with 18 rounds of 124gr +p or take your .40 loaded with 16 rounds of 180gr Ranger T. I would have to be the one High on coke to take the 9mm, I am taking the .40 every time! By the way I am 51 years old, so I learned about the .40 with no prejudice. When I was in LE I used a .357 Mag- Great Round- limited number of shots and follow-up shots were never that easy.
Have a Good Day Gentleman!
Frank
After re-visiting this thread I just had to come back in and stick up for Finalcut. If any of you gentlemen think the 9mm is better then the .40 in stopping the BG, then you are living in a sheltered world. Also calling the .40 short and weak, is like saying the .45 is trumped by a .17 hmr. I own all three calibers. After much research, a year and a half ago I decided to get a .40 and learn to shoot it well. It was the hardest caliber of the three to learn to shoot well for me. But well worth it. Just go ask anyone in LE that uses the .40 everyday in the line of duty. You will find out real quick that the 9mm is not a better stopper then the .40!
Their are so many very lethal rounds in the .40 cal, sometimes it is hard to name them all. In reality the .40 and .45 are much closer to each other in stopping power. I still prefer the .45 because I shoot it better. But if told me that five minutes from now 3 coked up BG were coming in my house and here ya go Frank-- your choice-- take your 9mm loaded with 18 rounds of 124gr +p or take your .40 loaded with 16 rounds of 180gr Ranger T. I would have to be the one High on coke to take the 9mm, I am taking the .40 every time! By the way I am 51 years old, so I learned about the .40 with no prejudice. When I was in LE I used a .357 Mag- Great Round- limited number of shots and follow-up shots were never that easy.Have a Good Day Gentleman!
Frank
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Flames Retardent ON
I agree with the original poster "whole heartedly"; with the 9m/m and
.45 ACP (combined) probably more souls have been planted, than the
.40 S&W can ever catch up too~! The 9 for instance, shoots flatter
and faster than any .40 S&W; and the .45 ACP is currently enjoying
a rebirth from its out-standing performance over 'bout 80 years in the
U.S. military. Really, I see NO use for such other cartridges as the .40
S&W, 10 m/m, and .357 SIG.
I forgot too mention that the 9m/m (being a NATO round) is most likely
available virtually worldwide; so if we find ourselves fighting another
ugly war far from home, we probably will be able to find an ample supply
of ammo anywhere in the world.
I agree with the original poster "whole heartedly"; with the 9m/m and
.45 ACP (combined) probably more souls have been planted, than the
.40 S&W can ever catch up too~! The 9 for instance, shoots flatter
and faster than any .40 S&W; and the .45 ACP is currently enjoying
a rebirth from its out-standing performance over 'bout 80 years in the
U.S. military. Really, I see NO use for such other cartridges as the .40
S&W, 10 m/m, and .357 SIG.
I forgot too mention that the 9m/m (being a NATO round) is most likely
available virtually worldwide; so if we find ourselves fighting another
ugly war far from home, we probably will be able to find an ample supply
of ammo anywhere in the world.
If any of you gentlemen think the .40 is better then the .45 in stopping the BG, then you are living in a sheltered world.But if told me that five minutes from now 3 coked up BG were coming in my house and here ya go Paul-- your choice-- take your 40 loaded with 16 rounds of 180gr ranger t or take your .45 loaded with 14 rounds of 230gr doubletap golddots. I would have to be the one High on coke to take the .40, I am taking the .45 every time except its in my holster an my ar15s in my hand !
the 40 is short & weak standing next to the 10mm
Lonestar49
Member
Maybe just because it's..
...
The high middle ground?
LS
...
The high middle ground?
LS
brownie0486
Member
Just go ask anyone in LE that uses the .40 everyday in the line of duty. You will find out real quick that the 9mm is not a better stopper then the .40!
This statement flies in the face of reality. In the first place, most cops don't know didly about loads or calibers. They carry what they are issued. Ask ANY officer? You'll get an opinion, no more or less.
Now to the remark that the 9mm doesn't stand up to the idea it is a better stopper, lets think about that statement for one minute-------
Does it have to be a better stopper than another round? Or does it only have to be a reliable stopper with the right load? The San Jose PD carries glock 17 9mm's for duty [ there are 1400+ officers on that dept ].
Less than two years ago, their 9mm glocks, stoked with 18 rds of Win Ranger 147 grain loads had stopped 9 for 9 with one shot on the streets there after they went to that load.
It doesn't have to be better than any other round, it onloy has to perform as expected, and if you use one of the better 9mm loads, it will suffice as well as any 40 or 45. Real street stats from the San Jose training officer who isn't guessing if some load works, but from real data they are experiencing on the streets.
Brownie
This statement flies in the face of reality. In the first place, most cops don't know didly about loads or calibers. They carry what they are issued. Ask ANY officer? You'll get an opinion, no more or less.
Now to the remark that the 9mm doesn't stand up to the idea it is a better stopper, lets think about that statement for one minute-------
Does it have to be a better stopper than another round? Or does it only have to be a reliable stopper with the right load? The San Jose PD carries glock 17 9mm's for duty [ there are 1400+ officers on that dept ].
Less than two years ago, their 9mm glocks, stoked with 18 rds of Win Ranger 147 grain loads had stopped 9 for 9 with one shot on the streets there after they went to that load.
It doesn't have to be better than any other round, it onloy has to perform as expected, and if you use one of the better 9mm loads, it will suffice as well as any 40 or 45. Real street stats from the San Jose training officer who isn't guessing if some load works, but from real data they are experiencing on the streets.
Brownie
GaryArkansas
Member
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- 152
40 caliber is fashionable among big caliber guys and government purchasing agents. Glock also has a great marketing machine. They persuaded the ATF to classify their guns as double action, and they give sweetheart deals to procuring agencies. Although no longer state of the art, Glocks in 40 caliber are entrenched in the minds of purchasing agents.
Guys who grew up watching John Wayne movies have a soft spot in their hearts for 1911 pistols and big cowboy calibers. You know who they are, because they walk lopsided from carrying all that weight. Yeah, they look manly, I know. Tommy Lee Jones carries a Glock in the Fugitive movies, so that's a plus for the big caliber guys.
Cool guys (like me) who watched James Bond movies while growing up, KNOW that smaller calibers are the best. The girls like us cuz we wear tuxedos ALL THE TIME. Our little guns allow us the hold a martini and cigarette in one hand, while shooting the bad guy with our other hand. If we ruled the world, there would be a weight limit on bullets at 110 grains. We think 9mm is too big, but, in the spirit of friendliness, we can compromise.
Guys who grew up watching John Wayne movies have a soft spot in their hearts for 1911 pistols and big cowboy calibers. You know who they are, because they walk lopsided from carrying all that weight. Yeah, they look manly, I know. Tommy Lee Jones carries a Glock in the Fugitive movies, so that's a plus for the big caliber guys.
Cool guys (like me) who watched James Bond movies while growing up, KNOW that smaller calibers are the best. The girls like us cuz we wear tuxedos ALL THE TIME. Our little guns allow us the hold a martini and cigarette in one hand, while shooting the bad guy with our other hand. If we ruled the world, there would be a weight limit on bullets at 110 grains. We think 9mm is too big, but, in the spirit of friendliness, we can compromise.
chieftain
Member
Statement attributed to a SEAL officer.
"Two to the Chest one In the head, what difference does caliber make?"
That is the same SEAL's who have not seen any reason to lay down their SIG 9mm's. They have the HK 45acp in inventory, but none of them use it anymore per several SEAL friends of mine. 2 of them are retired from the Navy now and both carry SIG 228's only available in 9mm.
Once more. With feeling.
If you think caliber is the answer, you really don't understand the question.
Go figure.
Fred
"Two to the Chest one In the head, what difference does caliber make?"
That is the same SEAL's who have not seen any reason to lay down their SIG 9mm's. They have the HK 45acp in inventory, but none of them use it anymore per several SEAL friends of mine. 2 of them are retired from the Navy now and both carry SIG 228's only available in 9mm.
Once more. With feeling.
If you think caliber is the answer, you really don't understand the question.
Go figure.
Fred
chieftain
Member
It isn't that they are taught "NOT" to shoot for the head. Most are not good enough to hit the head in a firefight. Until you can make the head shot while moving fore, aft, laterally both right or left, and at all angles, all that while being shot at, you are not ready.
The problem is not a hardware or caliber problem, it is a software problem. In this case, not enough training and quality practice.
Once again, if you are still asking what caliber, you really don't understand the question or the problem.
Go figure.
Fred
brownie0486
Member
chieftain;
Most are not good enough to hit the head in a firefight.
There's a HUGE difference between working as a team, going on the hunt, weapons out, at the ready and moving through scenarios offensively vs. a civilian having to react to any given situation from concealed carry and having to react coming from behind the curve defensively.
The two widely different venues between clearly being ready for a fight with gun in hand aggressively moving through an objective and starting from gun holstered reacting to others input behind the curve are worlds apart and require completely different sets of skills to go home at the end of the day.
Seals don't get into firefights taken by surprise and without their guns already drawn and at the ready very often at all while us civilians have to work from that very scenario almost exclusively.
I'm sure you already knew that though when you wrote it./
Brownie
Most are not good enough to hit the head in a firefight.
There's a HUGE difference between working as a team, going on the hunt, weapons out, at the ready and moving through scenarios offensively vs. a civilian having to react to any given situation from concealed carry and having to react coming from behind the curve defensively.
The two widely different venues between clearly being ready for a fight with gun in hand aggressively moving through an objective and starting from gun holstered reacting to others input behind the curve are worlds apart and require completely different sets of skills to go home at the end of the day.
Seals don't get into firefights taken by surprise and without their guns already drawn and at the ready very often at all while us civilians have to work from that very scenario almost exclusively.
I'm sure you already knew that though when you wrote it./
Brownie
SWMAN
Member
Larger availability of DA & DAO pistols are in 9mm & 40. Forty is a larger caliber and since 9mm has proven to be a lesser performer than .40, it gets the nod. FBI carries .40. Most .45 acp are chambered in the police administrators dreaded single action 1911. If the 45acp were to be chambered in DAs like the 220, you only get 8 rounds, rather than 11 or 12 in a DA or DAO .40. Double stack .45 auto would not be a one size fits all like most 9mm/.40 same framed semis. Non-shooters preceive the 1911 as a safety issue. Of course most all 1911s have at least two mechanical safeties, one more than most LEO weapons. Costs more to train the average LEO to be proficient with 1911s. DA/DAO easier to pull and shoot for most LEOs who shoot duty weapons 1x or 2x a year.
tinygnat219
Member
This has turned into a caliber war. Request the mods to close this thread down.
Vitamin G
Member
When was the last time a government agency did something that made sense?
(I'm either going with purchasing Alaska, which didn't make ANY sense at the time, or nuking Japan to save the lives of the soldiers.)
(I'm either going with purchasing Alaska, which didn't make ANY sense at the time, or nuking Japan to save the lives of the soldiers.)
MikePGS
Member
GaryArkansas, its a shame that your post is too long to use as a quote
As for any caliber, as Mr Stephen Camp elegantly argues (http://hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm vs 45.htm) placement is power. Thats not to say that a .22 is as efficient as a .44 magnum, but when talking about these particular rounds... 9mm, .40, .45 there is hardly sufficient difference when using expanding ammunition. My guess... and its just a guess... is that LE agencies followed the trend of the FBI, which as has been previously mentioned on this thread was founded on inaccurate information. The miami shootout was ended with a .38 special. I have never seen anyone argue that a .38 special is equivalent or superior to a .45... yet we see that if its placed properly, it will do the job. So really i think the reason law enforcement agencies went to .40 is because the FBI did. Or maybe they think they're getting .45 power with 9mm capacity.
As for any caliber, as Mr Stephen Camp elegantly argues (http://hipowersandhandguns.com/9mm vs 45.htm) placement is power. Thats not to say that a .22 is as efficient as a .44 magnum, but when talking about these particular rounds... 9mm, .40, .45 there is hardly sufficient difference when using expanding ammunition. My guess... and its just a guess... is that LE agencies followed the trend of the FBI, which as has been previously mentioned on this thread was founded on inaccurate information. The miami shootout was ended with a .38 special. I have never seen anyone argue that a .38 special is equivalent or superior to a .45... yet we see that if its placed properly, it will do the job. So really i think the reason law enforcement agencies went to .40 is because the FBI did. Or maybe they think they're getting .45 power with 9mm capacity.
MrAcheson
Member
People wanted more power than a 9mm in a similar sized firearm. You can't do this with .45 because you have to sacrifice a lot of mag capacity or the grip gets too big. But you can do it with .40 S&W.
Like most compromise rounds, .40 S&W isn't the best at anything. But it is second best at a lot of things. So it wins the points championship.
Like most compromise rounds, .40 S&W isn't the best at anything. But it is second best at a lot of things. So it wins the points championship.
Ditto.
Trifler
Member
Only reason I won't ever be getting a 1911 is because the guns are too big for my hands. I can hold it, but my finger has to stretch to the limit to pull the trigger, which doesn't help accuracy, and it's impossible for me to work the safety or the magazine release with my primary hand.
If it's a problem for me, I'm sure it's a problem for some others.
If it's a problem for me, I'm sure it's a problem for some others.
littlegator
Member
New Hampshire state police and hwy patrol just purchased a load of S&W M&P .45's. No compromise there.
chieftain
Member
BULL! You may not care for a 1911 which is fine. But don't use the "it don't fit" story. One of the strengths of the 1911 is it is so adaptable to particularly small handed people.
My youngest daughter stands 4' 10" at about 95lbs. She prefers my 1911's to any of my other hand guns Non-1911 Colt's, Hi Power's, SIG's, Glock's, Ruger's, Kahr's, S&W's, and many Revolvers etc...
She started shooting my Kimber Gold Combat Stainless series I. With the standard grips and trigger, and a S&A magwell.
She turns 21 next year. There will be one of my Government Colts in 45 of course waiting for her. With slim grip VZ gator backs and a short trigger, and straight main spring housing. She also prefers the light weight of the SU-16 Kel Tech carbine for her rifle. Set up with an Eotech. It will be packaged with the Colt.
Don't mess with Daddy's little girl.
My oldest daughter preferred a Glock. Glock 30 that is. Of course she is much taller at 5'5" & 29y/o.
My point is that the 1911 will fit more "small" hands than most other weapons.
Go figure.
Fred
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