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9mm kurz in pocket pistols make more sense than 9mmx19?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by jhb, May 18, 2011.

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  1. jhb

    jhb Member

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    i know .380acp is very popular for pocket pistols and not so popular for those who want a larger more powerful cartridge. so i see the want by allot of people for a 9mm pocket pistol that actually fits into a standard pants pocket has gotten allot of traction lately.

    there is no question the 9mmx19 is a far better round in a full size or even compact pistol, but when you move to a tiny pocket pistol...does the benefit actually work/make sense?

    so it got me thinking and i was doing some light reading...and i saw some mention of the , .380 being designed for smaller pistols with sub 3" barrel lengths and blow back designs. so in a way the .380 round was designed for tiny pistols sort of i guess would be close to somewhat accurate.

    so i am wondering does the 9mmx19 round make sense in a sub 3" barreled pocket pistol? thinking of the extra recoil in a 9x19 small lightweight pistol vs. the .380 and the ability to follow up with shots? will the short barrel really utilize the 9mmx19's extra charge/power and bullet weight and turn it into a far superior round for a very small pocket pistol? or is this more of one of those "people want it so we are going to make it" kind of things?

    i'll be the first to admit i am a big 9mmx19 fan. while i carry a .32acp and a .380acp daily unless dressed to carry a 9mmx19...i am tempted to "upgrade" to a 9mmx19 pocket pistol, but then again is it really that much better in ballistics in a short barreled tiny pistol and the ability to get the most our of it in follow up shots, etc? i am not so sure........thanks in advance to your feedback/insight.

    also to clarify i am not trying to start a .380 vs. 9mmx19 war thread. i like both rounds and own both. this is more me trying to get all the bias out of the way and look at it more logically, rather than the old "bigger is better" like i normally do.
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    There really are no "tiny" 9mm pistols as tiny as the tiny .380 ACP's like the Kel-Tec P3AT, or Rugers copy of it.

    And if there were, most people would find the recoil unpleasant enough to not shoot them very well.

    There would also be the issue of reliability.
    Many folks found the Kel-Tec P40 in .40 S&W too much of a good thing.
    Kel-Tec discontinued it after so many warranty returns for functioning problems that were caused by inexperianced new shooters limp-wresting a perfectly functioning gun.

    A 10 oz. 9mm would be the same can of worms for a manufacture.

    rc
     
  3. m2steven

    m2steven Member

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    I believe the key to self defense in terms of handguns is accuracy. Putting a first shot somewhere is tough enough, putting additional rounds becomes increasingly difficult as recoil goes up. My personal opinion is that a good 380 with something like Buffalo Bore (similar ballistics to 38 special) or Corbon ammo in a 380 will be easier to shoot follow up shots with. However, this is pistol dependent. My sig 238 is one of the easiest to shoot pistols I own, even with super hot ammo. So is the Kahr 380. My LCP is all over the place after the first shot.

    In 9mm, my little Taurus Slim is a great pistol for followup shots. Other small 9mm's are somewhat of a handfull. For me anyway. If you're serious about
    shooting defense, make sure you can handle post recoil aim and delivery.

    I've seen films on tv and youtube where some shop owner and criminal get into a gunfight, each guy gets off 14 to 16 rounds and no one gets hit. Why?
    Barrels not pointed at targets. First shots barely miss, next shots are anyones guess. You don't know what you'll do nor what will happen untiil you get there. Muscle memory from practice is the best 'ammo' you have.
     
  4. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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  5. Mayo

    Mayo Member

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    rcmodel---
    There is 1---Rohrbaugh R9.
     
  6. gbelleh

    gbelleh Member

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    Yes, the R9 is totally pocketable (one is in my pocket as I type this). I believe it is definitely ballistically superior to the .380, and no more difficult to carry. Recoil is stout, but not unmanageable. Accuracy at self defense distances is fine.

    Before I had the R9, I carried a P-3AT in the same type of role (backup gun).
     
  7. jhb

    jhb Member

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    good thougths guys, thanks.

    what about the new p290 sig pistol isn't that supposed to be around the p238 size which is easily pocket carried at least for me in khaki type office pants?

    i haven't seen one in the metal, but the kimber solo isn't it supposed to be pretty tiny and pocket carry? maybe i'm misinterpreting how small these new 9mm's are?
     
  8. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    I'll Second what RC says

    I have a P40 I picked up
    It chucks brass, about 20 feet straight up, actually hit my car parked behind the shooting stands, and that was by going OVER the cover.

    I can shoot the gun, I can shoot it accurately
    I cannot shoot more than two rounds rapidly without if jaming, not because of a malfunction, but rather because I end up breaking my wrist and limpwristing the gun.

    I have heard similar with the Kahr poly-framed .40
    Too MUCH, too small.
    Oh, and that if feels like someone is beating your hand with a ballpeen hammer doesn't help.
     
  9. gbelleh

    gbelleh Member

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    The 290 is way bigger than the 238, the Solo is closer in size to the Kahr PM9 than a Kel-Tec P3AT.
     
  10. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer member

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    If you go to "ballistics by the inch" you'll find there isn't much ballistic advantage to the 9mm over the .380 when you get down to barrels in the 2" or 3" range. Couple that with the fact that your follow-up shots are much slower and it doesn't make any sense.

    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/

    If you want a pocket pistol, get a .380. If you want something larger, get a 9mm.

    The same thing works in reverse - large .380's don't make much sense either...
     
  11. Mayo

    Mayo Member

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    You might want to check yor own stats you quoted from the website. The R9 is a 3" barrel. Look at the 3" .380 vs 3" 9mm---not a slight difference---big difference.
     
  12. 451 Detonics

    451 Detonics Member

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    I carry a PF-9 for a pocket gun...works fine. Loaded with the CorBon 95gr DPX it averages 1300fps from the Kel Tec's 3.1 inch barrel and is pretty pleasant to shoot. CorBon 380 80 gr DPX (which is warm ammo) hits just 1050 in a 4 inch barrel. For myself I would much prefer the 9mm.
     
  13. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer member

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    Hottest Rohrbaugh 115 grain 9mm; 949 fps

    Hottest 3" .380 90 grain; 1158 fps
     
  14. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    The PF9 is a great gun, I love mine. Lightest 9mm out there, and plenty thin. That said, it's too big to be a pocket gun for most of us. The heavier but shorter Kahr PM9 is at the upper limit for pocket carry, IMO.

    The Rorbaughs are neat, but they do seem to have the issues one can expect for such a tiny 9mm. And they're actually heavier than the PF9 (just as wide, too)
     
  15. Jed Carter

    Jed Carter Member

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    You know you "can" carry a larger self defense weapon. I view the ultra compact pistols as something I take with me when I am not carrying a gun.
     
  16. THplanes

    THplanes Member

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    Corbon 95 gr DPX, 1300 fps from a 3.1 inch barrel. It's a standard pressure round developed specifically for the R-9
     
  17. Mayo

    Mayo Member

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    You are picking and choosing---not comparing apples to apples.:rolleyes:
     
  18. Mayo

    Mayo Member

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  19. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer member

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    It's not tested on ballistics by the inch, so where are you getting your data?
     
  20. Harley Quinn

    Harley Quinn Member

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    Mayo mentions,
    You are picking and choosing---not comparing apples to apples.
    ****
    Of course, one is a 380, the other a 9mm:D
     
  21. Mayo

    Mayo Member

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    Directly from CorBon

     
  22. THplanes

    THplanes Member

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    As Mayo has already said, it's from Corbon. If you will check Corbons velocity claim for other loads with the ballistic by the inch's real gun tests of the same loads, you will see they are very close. Therefore I'm comfortable with using the Corbon site data for this load.
     
  23. One-Time

    One-Time Member

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    I personally wont carry a .380, its an anemic cartridge, not saying it cant kill, but I wont carry less than 9mm or .38 Special, and I dont even like those. Im looking at a .40 cal pocket piece, it wont be real fun to shoot but I have faith in calibers that begin w/ .4
     
  24. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    "And next month, we'll be offering our perpetual motion machine"

    I'm sorry, but a standard pressure 95 gr. load with identical performance to a 115 gr. +P load? At 1,300 FPS, their load develops 356 ft/lbs. Most 115 gr. +P loads are 400-500 ft/lbs. So supposedly this lighter bullet (less momentum) with less energy (reduced ability to do work) can perform "just as good"? I'm waving the B.S. flag until I see it in person

    As an aside, I played with a lot of 88, 90, 95, 100gr. bullets in 9mm, with velocities from 1,200 to 1,650 FPS. Sierra, Speer, Barnes, Remington, Hornady, Magtech. Not one of them got 16" of penetration, most of them came apart. I would not use these for defense. I even consider 115's too light. 124 and 147 in a 9mm.

    And on yet another note, 102 gr. Golden Sabre handloads as fired from my P3AT acheived 1020 FPS for 235 ft/lbs. They penetrated deeper in clay than the 115 gr. 9mm loads. Both expanded, but the .380 exited the 12" block. The 9mm load did not. Once again, 115's are too light.
     
  25. Dean1818

    Dean1818 Member

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    I have never been impressed with the penetration and expansion numbers on the 380

    I DONT want to get shot with one, but ....... would feel undergunned

    I dont want to limit myself to such a small cartridge especially since there are so many great 9mm options

    I also HATED shooting the small 380's...... horrible triggers in what I shot


    I am VERY impressed with the 9mm Corbon DPX 115 grain product.

    For me, it performed much better than other popular brands almost 3/4 inch expansion and 15 inches penetration.

    I did testing with wet newspaper packed in milk jugs with 4 layers of denim
     
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