9mm vs .45ACP

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Glock19Fan

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Between the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dots and the Speer 230 grain Short Barrel Gold Dots. Weapons are Glock 19 and a Glock 30.

The .45 came from the right, the 9mm came from the left. No clothing, 5 feet distance. The 9mm penetrated to 12 inches, the .45 penetrated to 12.25 inches.

The 9mm had the largest temporary cavity of 2.25 inches, compared to 1.75 inches with the .45. I dont have my notes on me at the moment, but the retained diameters were both around .68-.70 average.

2jepyme.jpg

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This test was backyard fun. I didnt care to calibrate nor get the velocities becuase these were two similar weapons fired at the same block at almost the same time.
 
I love fun tests!

But the velocities are important because they lend understanding to why the bullets performed the way they did. It's every bit as important as knowing bullet mass and design. If you were to do some test fires to determine approximate muzzle velocities, this would enable us to calculate how much energy each bullet had in order to duplicate such performances.

But as I said...fun test!

:):)
 
Cool test. Would you say the 9mm performed slightly better than the 45? It's been my opinion for quite a while that 9mm and 45 are effectively equal.
 
I don't place much reliance on balistic gell tests for measures of knock-down power. However, the rounds look fairly close based on this.

30 years ago, the 9mm was not compreable... apparently, now it is...
 
I would have got velocities, but it was raining and pretty overcast, but I decided to do the test anyway. But based on real world velocities from actual members on numerous forums, the 9mm Gold Dot is right around 1200 FPS with the .45 being around 850 FPS.

And yes, although this wasnt super scientific, its hard to argue with the results. Again, same sized platform, barrel, distance, gel block, and bullet design.

I would be confident in saying the 9mm outperformed the .45 on this test, but only if you like splitting hairs.
 
rajb123- The block didnt even weigh 20 pounds, and yet neither caliber moved the block from where it was sitting. There is no knockdown power in any handgun.
 
It's been my opinion for quite a while that 9mm and 45 are effectively equal.

Not just your opinion. There have been thousands of tests over the last 100+ years comparing the 2. Every imaginable type of test from shooting live animals, dead animals, geletian, one shot stop staistics, human cadiavers, computer simulations, you name it, someone has tested it. I have never seen anything that proves one is any better than the other. The mere fact that after over 100 years of side by side testing no clear winner can be determined is as much proof that they are equal as anything.
 
Knockdown...Not quite true::D
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Very interesting test, I'd have thought the results would have been more distinct.
I've always felt more comfortable with a smaller caliber and higher capacity.
 
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I love fun tests!

But the velocities are important because they lend understanding to why the bullets performed the way they did. It's every bit as important as knowing bullet mass and design. If you were to do some test fires to determine approximate muzzle velocities, this would enable us to calculate how much energy each bullet had in order to duplicate such performances.

But as I said...fun test!

:):)

I agree.

Having the velocities of these rounds would also allow the use of penetration models to determine how far these rounds would go in calibrated gelatin or soft tissue under similar conditions. I know that it is kind of "geeky" :D, but it is really very interesting (at least to me) to see how well the two penetration models that I know of (one by Duncan MacPherson and the other by Charles Schwartz) agree with such "real world" tests.

Thanks for doing this.
 
That looks fun.

I'm not surprised about the results. I'm a 9mm guy, because the quality of SD rounds available allows me to be. Before I got my concealed handgun license, I spent a lot of time checking out product reviews for defensive rounds. In every test I saw, and in everything I read, Speer Gold Dots were very consistent. Whether it was the 115gr (standard pressure), the 124gr +P short barrel, or the 147gr (standard pressure), penetration and expansion were in line with suggeted parameters.

This is a video showing Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P being shot through:
4 layers of denim
a hog head (bone penetration)
jugs of water

It is... impressive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CQ7ThU3Epk

For fun, here's one of Remington UMC .357 magnum, going through the same set up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozyjQjuaQ90


Naturally, there are lots of variables that blah, blah, body position, blah, etcetera. Still, seeing that Gold Dot punch through bone, expand so effectively, and retain so much weight, is very reassuring.
 
Thanks for posting this.

RE Knockdown power... in my simple non-scientific backyard test using water jugs, the Speer knocked the first jug up and over the other three and - though it failed to penetrate - knocked the fourth jug down. The PDX just penetrated three jugs without displacing anything. I never bought into the "Knock-down" theory, but my little test got me wondering.
 
"Knock down power" gets people riled up because people have two different meanings in mind. One possible meaning (the most literal) is that the force of impact of the bullet physically pushes a person off his or her feet to the ground. The second possible meaning is the ability of the round to cause a person to become incapacitated immediately.

The first is hollywood nonsense. Momentum is conserved, and Newton's Third Law still applies at human scales. If the bullet's impact alone has the power to knock down the target, its recoil has the power to knock down the shooter. (Admittedly, just a light shove can topple someone if you catch them at just the right point in their stride and/or they're already off-balance, a bullet with a lot of momentum can do the same... the same is true, of course, for the shooter. But that's a rare instance, and not what people are imagining.) This is the meaning that gets scientifically-minded people into a frenzy, because it's just fictional.

The second meaning is what (intelligent) people actually using the term more often mean. And that, of course, raises all the questions that terminal ballistics always raise, such as differing theories of wounding and incapacitation. It's almost a philosophical argument...
 
The second meaning is what (intelligent) people actually using the term more often mean. And that, of course, raises all the questions that terminal ballistics always raise, such as differing theories of wounding and incapacitation. It's almost a philosophical argument...

Well put!
 
**Knockdown Power**..... Sorry, I can't help but laugh when I think of Bugs Bunny cartoons and the Boxing Glove coming out the end of a pistol when he shot at Yosemite Sam....
 
I'm not a big fan of the term "knock-down power". I'm even less of a fan for the term "stopping-power". They're misleading terms that too many people apply totally unrealistically in their discussions.

But perhaps even less endearing are the people who get into heated debates using these terms to paint false or unrealistic pictures of the effects of any gunshot to a human being or animal.

Maybe Hollywood (and the general gullibility of the ignorant public with respect to weapons and weapon induced trauma) is to blame. Certainly, the marketing strategies used by some as a result maintain these false images.

When you're shooting a human being, or animal on a hunt, you aren't "knocking them down". You're using a high velocity projectile to punch a hole in their body to cause organ damage, musculature damage, and/or skeletal damage. In many cases, bullets pass entirely through the body, so only a fraction of their kinetic energy is actually transferred to the body in the form of kinetic energy and heat.

How the internal organs, and the body as a whole, react to that is far more a function of the physiological reaction to the damage itself, not because the body was "physically knocked down".

Muscles convulse, which may cause the body to drop, or to leap several feet. Organs suddenly cease functioning, like lungs or heart. Central nervous system shuts down due to shock. Bone breakage causes collapse. Bleeding causes weakness. Concussive effects of internal shockwaves cause paralysis or other organ failures.

About the only thing I'm willing to concede actual, physical "knock-down" on on would be a close range shotgun hit on a small critter.


Don't believe me?

Next time you go deer hunting, when you hang the deer carcass up in a tree to field dress it, stand back a distance while it's hanging there on a rope and shoot it again. Tell me how much it actually swings while it's hanging there. Then walk up to it and give it a moderate push with a hand and see what happens.


Don't get me wrong...the ability to drop a target varies importantly based on any number of factors for a given weapon/load. But it's NOT about "knocking it down". Because if it really WERE all about knocking a 200 pound person or animal down when you shoot it, you're 200 pound *ss would also be on the ground every time you pulled the trigger.

And God only knows what would happen to a human body who fired the rifle powerful enough to actually knock a 2,000 pound, four-footed Bison over.

Action and reaction...it's not just a good idea, it's the law.

:):)
 
I carry a .45, but I expect all premium defensive ammo to ghave similar performance between service calibers. I think the .45 advantage isn't nearly as big as some people seem to think it is, bit it's still an advantage, and I handle and shoot 1911s the best.
 
Interesting test; I've always wanted to do some gel testing, but cheap out and use water filled gallon jugs.
 
Interesting test.

I've carried 45s (1911 and M&P 45) and 9mm both, but the one that is usually on me is a Glock 19. I consider it to be a nearly ideal compromise in terms of size, capacity, weight, and shootability.

The Gold Dots shown in your test are also the round I carry.
 
I love my 1911s and the 45acp is a superb round.

But for my purposes, they're way too bulky and heavy for carrying.

I have a lot of confidence in my subcompact 9mm for carry duty.
 
I don't place much reliance on balistic gell tests for measures of knock-down power.

+1

I don't either. Because handgun bullets don't knock people down.

And if I utilize a pistol for self-defense, I'm not trying to knock anyone down. I'm trying to perforate vital tissue to incapacitate them.

OK, so ATLDave talked about the two meanings. As for the second meaning, neither the 9mm nor the .45 - even in +P loadings are going to produce hydrostatic shock, so you're left with wound channel volume, for "putting down" power or stopping power or whatever you want to call it.

Generally speaking the .45 creates wound channels with greater volumes (depending on the bullet). If your Speer Gold Dot got out to .68" I'd be surprised. From what I've seen they generally come in between .64 and .66"

Is .06" different in expansion going to make a difference? Probably not.
 
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Your gelatin results are to be expected, as both cartridges were not only made by the same company, for the same purpose, but were designed to do the same thing, to the same protocols as most premium JHPs produced by all the major manufacturers for the common duty cartridges. A .40 Gold Dot from my duty P229 would perform the same. One 9mm Winchester Silvertip, fired by FBI Special Agent Dove, into a certain Mr. Platt, circa 1986, has led to this, as that shot was deemed to have not penetated deeply enough.

I work for a very large PD, one of the largest in the USA, and we collectively shoot quite a few bad guys, over time. Until 1997, we carried a range of duty cartridges, in personally-owned duty pistols. Since 1997, the newer officers' primary duty pistols, while still officer-owned, have all been chambered for the .40 S&W, as have all the newer pistols bought my the pre-1997 veteran officers. While I do not have access to the terminal ballistic data, nor the incident reports, the long-term general knowledge among street officers around here is that shot placement is paramount, and all the duty cartridges perform about the same. When we hit bad guys in the important bits, they go down. When we miss the important bits, they may or may not go down. Of course, some officers, whose shots did not stop bad guys, tend to blame the ammo, when, really, the officers missed the most important bits.
 
I love my 1911s and the 45acp is a superb round.

But for my purposes, they're way too bulky and heavy for carrying.

I have a lot of confidence in my subcompact 9mm for carry duty.
I agree but that 1911 sure fits easy in the nightstand.
 
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