9mm with target sights

[JTQ]

You can fit almost any sights to almost any gun. Personally I would never buy a gun because of the sights it has; I would buy it for its other qualities and then add the sights I like later.

Glocks, no big deal. SIG, no big deal. M&P, no big deal. Their sight cuts are basically they same by maker. The 1911, it makes a difference? Count up the sight cuts available on 1911's. How many night sight options do you have for an LPA sight cut?

 

[ny32182]

What kind of sights can you not get for a 1911?

 

[JTQ]

Are there any Novak options for the Springfield Range Officer?

 

[kkayser]

I found it!

Thank you for your suggestions. I have done some research; a summation follows.

I prefer a light gun with a light trigger. I do not like the way a 1911 fits my hand, so I have eliminated all 1911's from consideration. However, I have included some 1911's in my summation.

H&K USP Expert: 33.6 oz, 3.8 lb trigger. A light gun with a light trigger. Available new. The rap on this gun is the trigger. It is light, but not “good”.

Sig P210 Target or P210-6. 37.4oz, 4.0lb trigger. Arguably the finest production gun of its type. Sig makes this gun now, but it is not available anywhere but Germany because the German government has embargoed all of SIG’s guns. Very scarce used for $2000.00 and up.

Sphinx Production. 33oz, 3.3 lb trigger. Lightest weight and trigger pull. Hopefully available “later in 2015"

Springfield Xdm 29 oz, 5.5 - 7.7lb trigger. Lightest here but one of the heaviest triggers.

Pardini GT-9 38 oz, trigger pull not listed. This is a 1911 style gun. Being a Pardini, the workmanship is probably excellent, on a par with the Sig p210 and Smith 952. The trigger in my Pardini Bullseye is the best I have ever pulled.

S&W 952 , 38oz & 952-2, 40oz. 3.5 lb trigger. The 952-2 has a 6" barrel and slide. Arguably the best American made production gun of its type. The Sig p210 and Smith 952 are consensus top of the 9mm semi-autos. Used available $2000 and up, 952-2 higher than 952-1. A new 952-2 goes for about $3600.

Browning Hi-Power 32 oz, 10 lb trigger!

CZ Combat 75 (85 left hand) 35.3 oz 12/4.8 lb trigger.

Para 18-9, 1911

None of these are both available new AND light weight with light trigger.

However there is a gun, not mentioned here, with a lighter trigger than any gun listed here. It weighs within 3 oz of the lightest gun here: 36 oz with magazine. The trigger is 2.2 - 3.1 lbs, and is adjustable for finger length. I paid less than $2000. It is a Sig P226 X5 Lightweight. I have it now, and it seems to be everything I want in a 9mm target pistol. It is lighter than my Pardini Bullseye, and the trigger is very nearly as good.

I intend to keep looking for a Smith 952 or 952-1 for $2400.00 or less. These Smith’s are much more plentiful than the Sig P210 Target or P210-6.

 

[tuj]

Pardini GT-9 38 oz, trigger pull not listed. This is a 1911 style gun. Being a Pardini, the workmanship is probably excellent, on a par with the Sig p210 and Smith 952. The trigger in my Pardini Bullseye is the best I have ever pulled.

No, the Pardini GT-series is the farthest thing you will find from a 1911-style gun. The grip angle is vastly different, as is the two stage trigger, as is the double-stack magazine, as is virtually everything about the gun. The Pardini GT trigger can be adjusted to be very light, easily under 2lbs for both stages combined.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Thank you for your suggestions. I have done some research; a summation follows.

Some of your research seems to be in error or you've simply misunderstood the information you've received.

Just about any of the guns mentioned can have their triggers lightened by a competent gunsmith (or by the owner). Some polishing on the hammer/sear interface helps a lot. In some cases, all you really need to do is go to a lighter set of hammer springs. Doing this does not void the warranty.

Germany has NOT, as best I can tell, embargoed guns coming to the U.S. (That sort of action would cause the German Government problems with the EU, and harm trade relations with the U.S...) SIG is assembling a lot of guns in the U.S., but the top tier SIGs continue to be made in Germany. (If Germany had/has embargoed SIG's guns, how did you get hands on that P226 X Five Lightweight? -- as far as I know, the X-5s are all made in Germany.)

A number of other guns like the CZ (and that's an 85 Combat, not a Combat 75) really doesn't have that much better a trigger than the 75B SA, although the 85 Combat doesn't have the firing pin block. All of the CZs based on the base 75 model have almost identical internal parts; the SA models have the same parts as the DA/SA except for the trigger lever and disconnector. The standard CZ 75 SA (and several variants of it) can be SA, or started from SA, and are available from the CZ Custom Shop. DA/SA CZs equipped with safeties can be gunsmithed to have triggers almost as good (some say "as good") as 1911s.

As you note, the S&W 952 is no longer in production, but you may be able to find new old stock somewhere, or just buy a used one. The older versions of the P210 is available used, and you can probably order one new (called the "Legend") -- but it will take a while. (I had a 210-6 and it was fine, but the older P-210s had some traits that don't appeal to everyone -- 8 round mags, hammer bite, sharp edges on the sights, and European-style mag releases; the newer models fix some of this. I'm not sure it is or was "arguably the best American made production gun of its type" -- but it's a fine weapon. (I shot them and liked them, but also had a S&W 52-2, upon which it was based. I liked it better in most ways.)

I have a Sphinx SDP, which is about as good as you're going to get without spending $2000+, but I've got a couple of other CZ-pattern guns that are almost as good, and two of them can be started from cocked & locked. A simple spring change (suggested by Kriss/Shinx) easily lowers the trigger pull to about half of the amount you state, and you can get it lower. When they begin offering the Safety-equipped models, it may be your best bet.

If you don't like 1911s, you I don't know why you'd even look at a Para 18-9, as it's a 1911 with a double-stack mag. If the single-stacks don't fit you, the double-stack isn't likely to fit, either.

The Browning Hi-Power (or the same gun, less pretty the FN Hi-Power) won't have the best trigger until it's worked on. Cylinder & Slide can make it sing! (I have a nicely tuned T-series BHP, and I like it a lot. It has been worked on.)

The H&K P7 (in several forms) had an outstanding reputation for accuracy, and once you get used to the "squeeze the grip to release the safety" manual of arms, the trigger can be made to be quite light. The gun isn't heavy.

The Springfield XDm is a fine gun, but probably best for concealed carry. I don't think it's really a true target gun on a par with many of the others you mentioned. It may be light, with a good trigger, but that isn't always enough.

You really need to do some HANDS ON work with some of these guns -- research alone won't keep you out of trouble.

A light gun is wonderful for carry purposes, but the weight of some of these guns is a plus NOT a negative. (One of the thing about some of the SIG P226 X-Five guns most liked is their weight -- most of them are STEEL not alloy -- and that helps with recoil and allows more rapid followup shots. I've had a P226 X-Five SA in .40. I prefer 9mm. I much preferred the P210-6 to the P226 X-Five Competition (SA/.40).

 

[tuj]

Dude if you are going to pay $2400 for a 9mm, GET THE PARDINI GT.

1. Its still supported, unlike the 952 (S&W might support it, but parts are getting harder to find)
2. Parts are in the USA from Pardini USA (ask for Emil)
3. Its more accurate than you are
4. You can adjust the trigger yourself.

 

[BlindJustice]

Springfield Armory Range Officer ( full size ) is avail. in 9x19 with the
W&E rear sight.

FYI - SIg 210-9 is the re-introduced 210, the last Swiss made 210
was the 210-8 <-- first to have the mag release moved to the LH side
to the rear of the trigger guard like a 1911 or BHP the earlier ones have
the eurro style release aat the butt of the grip.

R-

 

[bullbarrel]

I have the Springfield Armory Range Officer in 9mm. No problems with it, it does seem to have minimal creep in the trigger. I notice its barrel is considerably thicker than my 9mm Colt milspec for instance. The adjustable sights are ideal. It is parkerized and comes with an Israeli-built polymer holster and double mag holder & two mags.

 

[anothernewb]

both my hipowers have adj sights. as well as my STi

 

[bc1023]

I intend to keep looking for a Smith 952 or 952-1 for $2400.00 or less. These Smith’s are much more plentiful than the Sig P210 Target or P210-6.

Prices are really starting to get high on any of the 952 pistols. If you manage to find one locally, you may get lucky. Not every seller or shop is in tune with Gunbroker prices.

Also, the P210 target models are more plentiful than the 952 is by a good margin. You got that backwards.

 

[kkayser]

Germany has NOT, as best I can tell, embargoed guns coming to the U.S. (That sort of action would cause the German Government problems with the EU, and harm trade relations with the U.S...) SIG is assembling a lot of guns in the U.S., but the top tier SIGs continue to be made in Germany. (If Germany had/has embargoed SIG's guns, how did you get hands on that P226 X Five Lightweight? -- as far as I know, the X-5s are all made in Germany.)

A light gun is wonderful for carry purposes, but the weight of some of these guns is a plus NOT a negative. (One of the thing about some of the SIG P226 X-Five guns most liked is their weight -- most of them are STEEL not alloy -- and that helps with recoil and allows more rapid followup shots. I've had a P226 X-Five SA in .40. I prefer 9mm. I much preferred the P210-6 to the P226 X-Five Competition (SA/.40).

When I started looking, I found one Sig P210 for sale new. It was a "super target" for $3600+. If you know a source for a new P210 target at the list price, please let us all know. I got the P226 because it was still in the pipe line. I found only one other p226 x5 lightweight on the net, and it was at full list price.

As for weight. My back gets tired when I hold something at arms length for an hour or so. One can always increase the weight of a any gun by adding weights.

 

[kkayser]

Prices are really starting to get high on any of the 952 pistols. If you manage to find one locally, you may get lucky. Not every seller or shop is in tune with Gunbroker prices.

Also, the P210 target models are more plentiful than the 952 is by a good margin. You got that backwards.

A check of the Gunbroker site, "completed items" shows six Sig P210 target and 65 Smith 952.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You're going to have to put an order in with a dealer who handles SIGs and wait... unless you get the SIG P226 X Five lightweight... and you might wait a while for that, too. That may be the best compromise short of a P210.. Or an H*K P7, some of which are close to the P-210 in accuracy. (I find the P7s troublesome.)

I've owned a P-210-6, a P226 X Five, a S&W 52-2; I've shot some custom 1911s which were very nice, shot a S&W 952 and 952-2 (and loved how they looked and felt, loved the 9mm round and much higher capacity, but wasn't all THAT impressed with their performance.)

If I had the budget you seem to have, I'd give serious thought to the Pardini mentioned abgove, or having a CZ (or CZ-pattern gun) tuned by the CZ Custom Shop or Cajun Gun Works to your specs. They both offer exceptional weapons that will be as reliable as the P-210 and nearly as accurate. (And unless you're truly a superior shooter, you'll never come close to wringing the full potential out of any of those guns.)

Be warned: parts are available for the X-Five guns, but they are far from standard, and it can take a long time for some ordered part to arrive. (It took me months to get a new guide rod for my X-Five Competition, and springs are not standard P226 springs, so they're not available from Wolff.

Note: you need to remove the first SLASH in the first "QUOTE" above. That (the /) is used only with the END quote. (if you insert an "=" following the quote, no spaces, and the name of the writer being cited, it shows WHO you're quoting.)

 

[kkayser]

You really need to do some HANDS ON work with some of these guns -- research alone won't keep you out of trouble. (SA/.40).

Don't I wish. I live in the Milwaukee, WI area. The only one of these guns that I could touch, much less fire, was a Sig P226.

As for a good gunsmith, again, don't I wish. I have asked around at the range, all I get is: so and so was very good, but he retired. Shipping guns is a real PIA.

 

[Snejdarek]

If light is what you are looking for then how about CZ 75 Compact with aluminum frame from the custom shop? I am sure that changing the sights on Pro-Tek 1 would not be a problem for them.

800 g (28.2 oz)

"Single Action trigger at approx 3.5-4.0 lbs Crisp and smooth, Double Action at a smooth 7 / 8 Lbs " according to the website

http://czcustom.com/CZPCRPRO-TEK1Black.aspx

As a sidenote: The 2015 Compact has interchangeable safety/decocker like P07/P09, I am not sure if that is kept also for the custom shop versions.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

As for a good gunsmith, again, don't I wish. I have asked around at the range, all I get is: so and so was very good, but he retired. Shipping guns is a real PIA.

Yeah, and you can't eat your cake and have it, too.

You can order a gun directly from CZ Custom (through a local FFL) and there's only shipping one way. Cajun Gun Works can probably do the same. They'll ship to your FFL. A number of other sources have guns already tuned and ready to go... Try Cylinder & Slide, Wilsom Combat (they're tuning Beretta 9mms now, comparable to the M-9s use by the US Army Marksmanship Unit -- which wins all sorts of competition)/ Even Bar-Sto offers completed guns. Gray Guns might possibly do the same. You have more options than you realize.

If you're willing to spend big bucks to get a great gun, the PIA of waiting forever might be trumped by the lesser PIA of working with a dealer or FFL to ship guns. And if the FFL uses US Mails, the cost of shipping can be much lower.

 

[Dudedog]

Love my Springfield 1911 9mm stainless. Factory adjustable rear sight.
It shoots great. Downside only 9 round cap but I live in CA and 10 is the max anyway.
The other minor downside is as a 1911 it takes a little more time to field strip.
(not like an XD that I can have apart in 5 seconds, and back in about 10 or less.)

I can't say enough good things about it. The pistol is caable of shooting better than I can. (which may not be saying a whole lot )
Factory trigger is very good out of the box IMO.

But of course if you have 1911s off the list that rules it out.
Not real expensive but of course more than a Glock/XD....

I also purchased a Sig P226 Dark Elite with adjustable sights. I wanted a double action 9mm with adjustable sights and there was not much on CA approved list. The rear sight on it has been nothing but a PITA. Windage is adjusted by loosening to tiny allen screws. Back to Sig, would not stay tight (even thought the screws were tight and had been put in with lock tite from the factory), (front fell out of dovetail as well ) ended up having to Loctite the rear which basically makes it only adjustable for elevation. I like the pistol but am sadly disappointed having to mess with a new over $1000 gun to make it shootable, and then not being able to adjust the "adjustable" rear, one of the main reasons I purchased it.
Of course since it is the Dark Elite normal Sig P226 replacement sights won't work.. :banghead: I don't know if Sig still offers these "adjustable combat night sights" but I would say avoid them. Junk sight IMO.
(turns out this is a known issue with that sight and Dark Elites, I should have done better research before buying it)
Otherwise SRT is nice, and the pistol seems accurate. (I like the Springfield better though)

 

[Walt Sherrill]

...ended up having to Loctite the rear which basically makes it only adjustable for elevation.

If you have to undo set screws to adjust windage it would seem that your gun is adjustable for elevation only. Some guns are. (I've never really had to adjust windage on any of my handguns with adjustable sights once I got it dialed in. Elevation may need to be adjusted with different loads or when shooting greater distances...) I do like windage adjustments that are in the sight mechanism and do NOT require moving the sight base itself. But I'd rather have set screws than not. Loc-tite isn't a lot of trouble if you use BLUE and have a soldering gun or heat gun handy if you ever need to loosen the set screws.

My Sphinx SDP has set screws for windage, and then -- at the range -- I found that the Allen fitting required a metric tool!! (Turns out I had one stashed away AT HOME that would fit -- but I didn't figure that out until I had bought a new one. )

 

[bc1023]

A check of the Gunbroker site, "completed items" shows six Sig P210 target and 65 Smith 952.

That's because, there really is no "P210 Target". There's a Legend Target and a Legend Super Target. There's a P210-5 and a P210-6 from Switzerland that are considered target models. However, auctions are not labeled "P210 Target" because that's not the model name.

Trust me, I've been buying high end target pistols for many years and I'm fortunate enough to own pretty much all of them. The P210's with the "target" trigger are much more common than the 952. They were also in production much, much longer.

I'd venture to say that there are more P210 Legends around than there are 952's.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I just took a quick look at Gunbroker, and there are a 196 SOLD P-210 out there, an 4 new ones.

There were also 4 952s, all very pricey, and one was a LONG SLIDE version that has a "BUY NOW" pride of $6300, and a bid for $5000 that didn't meet the reserve. The LS version is presented "As New."

 

[bc1023]

There were also 4 952s, all very pricey, and one was a LONG SLIDE version that has a "BUY NOW" pride of $6300, and a bid for $5000 that didn't meet the reserve. The LS version is presented "As New."

952's are bringing serious money. A couple weeks back a used 5" model sold for over $4000 without the box or anything. The longslide brings even more money. As you mentioned, one sold for over $6000 recently.

I've got one of each and they're incredible pistols.

 

[kkayser]

That's because, there really is no "P210 Target". There's a Legend Target and a Legend Super Target. There's a P210-5 and a P210-6 from Switzerland that are considered target models. However, auctions are not labeled "P210 Target" because that's not the model name.

Trust me, I've been buying high end target pistols for many years and I'm fortunate enough to own pretty much all of them. The P210's with the "target" trigger are much more common than the 952. They were also in production much, much longer.

I'd venture to say that there are more P210 Legends around than there are 952's.

I re-checked "completed items" on gun broker. "sig legend target". returned 3 unique hits. "Sig p210-6" returned 5 unique hits with adjustable sights. "sig P210 target" returned 5 unique hits. Approximately 7 different pistols total with adjustable sights.

It is probably true that there are more P210 legends than 952's, BUT all 952's have adjustable sights, only a few % p210's have adjustable sights.

 

[kkayser]

I just took a quick look at Gunbroker, and there are a 196 SOLD P-210 out there, an 4 new ones.

There were also 4 952s, all very pricey, and one was a LONG SLIDE version that has a "BUY NOW" pride of $6300, and a bid for $5000 that didn't meet the reserve. The LS version is presented "As New."

Of those 196 only about 5 had adjustable sights.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm not sure you can tell by model name/description alone. My P-210-6 did NOT have adjustable sights. (I bought it new in 1998, new old stock from the distributor. It was dated 1976. It came with a 1.7" five-shot proof target at 50 meters (55+ yards.)

After-market sights are always an option -- and sometimes the after-market sights are better than the sights that come on the gun.

And I've found that adjustable sights are nice, but once you settle into a round you like, they seldom get adjusted. Gun makers will generally give you (often at no charge) a new rear or front sight that will take the point of impact up or down, based on where you're hitting and the distance to the target.

The most marvelous gun I owned and shot was a S&W 52-2, which had a breathtaking trigger. It shot beautifully, but I don't hand load, and finding proper ammo was very difficult: it had to be exactly the right length, and not a hair more, or it wouldn't fit in the magazine... The capacity [5 rounds] was irritating -- but perfectly consistent with the venue for which it was designed. Gorgeous gun, too.

I think the Pardini is the one to get...