cowpuncher/pi
Member
I was wondering what the state of the 9x23 is today. Is it making a foothold? It looks like it would be a very good carry round in the 1911 platform. Thanks and regards.
9x23
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Clark
Member
There are two ways to go:
1) Give your 1911 and $1,000 to the smith that owns the smithingpistol forum, farms the moderator title to the other smiths there, owns the 9x23mm website that reads like a gun magazine, and drives around in a Porche.
2) Buy some Win 9x23Wiin brass or Starline 9mm Super Comp brass, use your 9mm dies, a few twists of the wrist to ream out a 9x23mm chamber in a pistol with a long OAL magazine; Star Super B, Tokarev, or 1911 like Para Ord P10-9mm.
The first way costs $1,000 and the second costs $10, and there are some other paths in between. I went the cheap route. I have done it with drills. I have done it with a 9x23mm reamer. Properly throated, the Star Super B will feed 1.3" OAL and Tokarvs will feed 1.36" OAL 9x23 ammo with 158 gr LSWC or XTP bullets, or they can be seated shorter per the table below.
base: Largo .375", 38 super: .384", 9x23: .390"
case: Largo: .91", 38 Super: .9", 9x23mm: .9"
neck: Largo: .375", 38 Super: .384", 9x23mm: .380"
OAL: Largo: 1.32", 38 Super: 1.28", 9x23mm: 1.245"
1) Give your 1911 and $1,000 to the smith that owns the smithingpistol forum, farms the moderator title to the other smiths there, owns the 9x23mm website that reads like a gun magazine, and drives around in a Porche.
2) Buy some Win 9x23Wiin brass or Starline 9mm Super Comp brass, use your 9mm dies, a few twists of the wrist to ream out a 9x23mm chamber in a pistol with a long OAL magazine; Star Super B, Tokarev, or 1911 like Para Ord P10-9mm.
The first way costs $1,000 and the second costs $10, and there are some other paths in between. I went the cheap route. I have done it with drills. I have done it with a 9x23mm reamer. Properly throated, the Star Super B will feed 1.3" OAL and Tokarvs will feed 1.36" OAL 9x23 ammo with 158 gr LSWC or XTP bullets, or they can be seated shorter per the table below.
base: Largo .375", 38 super: .384", 9x23: .390"
case: Largo: .91", 38 Super: .9", 9x23mm: .9"
neck: Largo: .375", 38 Super: .384", 9x23mm: .380"
OAL: Largo: 1.32", 38 Super: 1.28", 9x23mm: 1.245"
grendelbane
Member
OK, Clark. I am currently in the process of assembling a .38 Super on a Caspian frame. I have a 9mm Parabellum barrel available, and an old Colt .38 Super barrel. (Probably 60's manufacture, as is the slide. Reputed to be inaccurate, though my other .38 Super, which was inaccurate with factory loads would shoot handloads loaded just a little bit long quite well.)
I will pick up a box of 9x23 tomorrow at the gun show. Some people report good results in stock .38 Super barrels. Spring rate and extractor tension issues I feel competent to handle. I have both 9mm Parabellum dies & .38 Super dies. (Two sets of .38 Super dies, including a Lee carbide sizer die that is noticeably looser than the steel RCBS dies.)
I should be able to assemble a working 9x23 from all these components. My only concern so far is chamber dimensions. The gentleman driving the Porsche that you mentioned warns against non-chalantly firing 9x23 in .38 Super chambers, and hints that it is hard to make one run right.
My own personal belief is that there is enough variation in chamber dimensions that some .38 Supers may indeed run well with 9x23.
My last project was a Delta Elite rebarrelled to 357 SIG. I could load the cartridge long, and get a little more powder in. It would be interesting to me to see how these two cartridges compare. The 357 SIG is finicky about feeding, I think that a straight cartridg case might feed better. (Yes, I know that is exactly the opposite of conventional wisdom. I have some experience with bottleneck cartridges, as I bought a .41 Avenger in the mid 80s.)
Anyhow, I would appreciate your comments on the proper chamber for the 9x23, and how to attain it. Reamer, drill bit, whatever.
I will pick up a box of 9x23 tomorrow at the gun show. Some people report good results in stock .38 Super barrels. Spring rate and extractor tension issues I feel competent to handle. I have both 9mm Parabellum dies & .38 Super dies. (Two sets of .38 Super dies, including a Lee carbide sizer die that is noticeably looser than the steel RCBS dies.)
I should be able to assemble a working 9x23 from all these components. My only concern so far is chamber dimensions. The gentleman driving the Porsche that you mentioned warns against non-chalantly firing 9x23 in .38 Super chambers, and hints that it is hard to make one run right.
My own personal belief is that there is enough variation in chamber dimensions that some .38 Supers may indeed run well with 9x23.
My last project was a Delta Elite rebarrelled to 357 SIG. I could load the cartridge long, and get a little more powder in. It would be interesting to me to see how these two cartridges compare. The 357 SIG is finicky about feeding, I think that a straight cartridg case might feed better. (Yes, I know that is exactly the opposite of conventional wisdom. I have some experience with bottleneck cartridges, as I bought a .41 Avenger in the mid 80s.)
Anyhow, I would appreciate your comments on the proper chamber for the 9x23, and how to attain it. Reamer, drill bit, whatever.
Jim Watson
Member
When the 9x23 was a CP proprietary round, before Winchester got into the act, Mr Ricco at CP drew up two reamers; one for use on a new barrel, one for the purpose of rechambering a .38 Super. One with proper support yanna, yanna. Considerable discussion in Layne Simpson's book, which came out about that time.
Been numerous 9mm P barrels rechambered, too. With the advantage of same diameters, just tapered out over a shorter case. A regular reamer, if you care to pay for it, will clean up.
Been numerous 9mm P barrels rechambered, too. With the advantage of same diameters, just tapered out over a shorter case. A regular reamer, if you care to pay for it, will clean up.
lycanthrope
Member
A LOT of info on the 9x23 and it's dynamics and advantages can be found at www.pistolsmith.com
Dane Burns is a high class smith who has spent quite some time researching the 9x23 as a defensive caliber.
Dane Burns is a high class smith who has spent quite some time researching the 9x23 as a defensive caliber.
Clark
Member
Dane Burns' website is what got ME started.
His statements the the 9x23mmWin is equal to the very hottest 357 mag and limited only by the primer suggests to me that he has gone way past the wimpy hand loads on his web site. The loads on his site are no challenge to the hottest .380, let alone the 357 mag.
The Starline 9mm Super Comp brass is externally interchangeable with the Winchester 9x23Win brass, but the Winchester brass is built more like rifle brass with thick case walls and a thick web.
The Winchester brass can be worked up to a load, that when backed off some safety margin, fulfills Dane's claim, and challenges the hottest 357 mag.
His statements the the 9x23mmWin is equal to the very hottest 357 mag and limited only by the primer suggests to me that he has gone way past the wimpy hand loads on his web site. The loads on his site are no challenge to the hottest .380, let alone the 357 mag.
The Starline 9mm Super Comp brass is externally interchangeable with the Winchester 9x23Win brass, but the Winchester brass is built more like rifle brass with thick case walls and a thick web.
The Winchester brass can be worked up to a load, that when backed off some safety margin, fulfills Dane's claim, and challenges the hottest 357 mag.
ClarkEMyers
Member
At least list components if not exact loads?
Don't stop there, talk about some powders, primers and bullets for Winchester 9x23 brass? Do you find that Winchester WAP (and the still available presumably similar) is very much not the best choice in 9X23?
I'd like the 90 grain Sierra with some powder for ground squirrels (I used maximum by the book loads of Bluedot in 9mm haven't loaded it in 9x23) but I credit reports that like the .357 Maximum the 9x23 will scour barrels with max velocity for the lightest bullets in the otherwise best performing loads?
Any thoughts on the Corbon Powerball as a blowup bullet varmint load?
Don't stop there, talk about some powders, primers and bullets for Winchester 9x23 brass? Do you find that Winchester WAP (and the still available presumably similar) is very much not the best choice in 9X23?
I'd like the 90 grain Sierra with some powder for ground squirrels (I used maximum by the book loads of Bluedot in 9mm haven't loaded it in 9x23) but I credit reports that like the .357 Maximum the 9x23 will scour barrels with max velocity for the lightest bullets in the otherwise best performing loads?
Any thoughts on the Corbon Powerball as a blowup bullet varmint load?
Clark
Member
There is no SAAMI spec for max pressure in 9x23, but...
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I wanted to see how much power I could get.
For a while I was shooting:
1) 158 gr LSWC, 1.36", converted Tokarev, Starline 9mm Supercomp brass, and 20 gr of LONGSHOT.
Given that the max powder charge for that bullet in 357 mag is 8.5 gr, one would think that would give more power than:
2) 158 gr XTP, primed Win 9x23mmWin brass, 16 gr Power Pistol.
But even though the max load with that bullet for 357 mag is 8gr, the Power Pistol load is more powerful.
I have also converted a Star Super B, but all it has shot is 10 gr LONGSHOT, 158 gr LSWC, 1.3".
Here is a synopsis of experiments in pursuit of max power:
9x23 with chamber support that reaches the web, and extra throat:
I worked up loads until the brass failed or I could fit no more powder with:
Win brass, 130 gr. 3N37 ...primer falls out
Win brass, 130 gr. N105 ...case full
Starline brass, 130 gr. Power Pistol ...case full and primer falls out
Starline brass 130 gr. N105 ...case full
Win brass, 130 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full
Win brass, 147 gr. 800X ...case full
Starline brass, 147 gr. 800X ...case full
Starline 147 gr. Blue Dot ...case full
Win brass 147 gr. Power Pistol ...case full
Win brass 147 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full
Starline brass 158 gr. STEEL ...case full
Starline brass 158 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full [Double compression]
Starline brass 158 gr. Power Pistol case fails
Win brass 158 gr. Power Pistol ...case full, double compression
I have not chrono'd the loads, just compared by recoil.
I HAVE chrono'd a .380 load that is similar: 8.5 gr Power Pistol [all that will fit] 158 gr XTP, 1.090", 1187 fps
From what I know about handloading, I realize that even more power is possible with double compressing 800X. I have not done that with 9x23, but I have with .380, 40S&W, and 10mm.
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I wanted to see how much power I could get.
For a while I was shooting:
1) 158 gr LSWC, 1.36", converted Tokarev, Starline 9mm Supercomp brass, and 20 gr of LONGSHOT.
Given that the max powder charge for that bullet in 357 mag is 8.5 gr, one would think that would give more power than:
2) 158 gr XTP, primed Win 9x23mmWin brass, 16 gr Power Pistol.
But even though the max load with that bullet for 357 mag is 8gr, the Power Pistol load is more powerful.
I have also converted a Star Super B, but all it has shot is 10 gr LONGSHOT, 158 gr LSWC, 1.3".
Here is a synopsis of experiments in pursuit of max power:
9x23 with chamber support that reaches the web, and extra throat:
I worked up loads until the brass failed or I could fit no more powder with:
Win brass, 130 gr. 3N37 ...primer falls out
Win brass, 130 gr. N105 ...case full
Starline brass, 130 gr. Power Pistol ...case full and primer falls out
Starline brass 130 gr. N105 ...case full
Win brass, 130 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full
Win brass, 147 gr. 800X ...case full
Starline brass, 147 gr. 800X ...case full
Starline 147 gr. Blue Dot ...case full
Win brass 147 gr. Power Pistol ...case full
Win brass 147 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full
Starline brass 158 gr. STEEL ...case full
Starline brass 158 gr. LONGSHOT ...case full [Double compression]
Starline brass 158 gr. Power Pistol case fails
Win brass 158 gr. Power Pistol ...case full, double compression
I have not chrono'd the loads, just compared by recoil.
I HAVE chrono'd a .380 load that is similar: 8.5 gr Power Pistol [all that will fit] 158 gr XTP, 1.090", 1187 fps
From what I know about handloading, I realize that even more power is possible with double compressing 800X. I have not done that with 9x23, but I have with .380, 40S&W, and 10mm.
patentnonsense
Member
I've been wondering about 9x23 for awhile - but I think I'm going to try 9x25 first. Doubletap.com is now offering 9x25 factory ammo, and Barsto is offering 9x25 barrels (through doubletap.com) for most 10mm autos.
I like the idea of reaming a 9x19+P barrel, but how much OAL do you need for 9x23? And if the 9x23 isn't bottlenecked, that's a big advantage over 9x25.
I like the idea of reaming a 9x19+P barrel, but how much OAL do you need for 9x23? And if the 9x23 isn't bottlenecked, that's a big advantage over 9x25.
Clark
Member
9x23 is not registered, so there is no official OAL.
The length you seat would be dependent on the magazine length and bullet nose shape.
Burns lists 1.250" or longer. Obviously he is into the 1.275" 1911 magazines.
Winchester, that designed the cartridge and sells white box ammo, says 1.3" max in their handloading 1999 manual.
Winchester lists 8.4 gr WAP, 125 gr JHP, 1435 fps, 46,000 psi
The length you seat would be dependent on the magazine length and bullet nose shape.
Burns lists 1.250" or longer. Obviously he is into the 1.275" 1911 magazines.
Winchester, that designed the cartridge and sells white box ammo, says 1.3" max in their handloading 1999 manual.
Winchester lists 8.4 gr WAP, 125 gr JHP, 1435 fps, 46,000 psi
Jim Watson
Member
Clark, what do you mean, 9x23 is not "registered" and there is no SAAMI pressure specification? I have trouble believing that Winchester would manufacture ammunition and Colt the guns without it being on the SAAMI books.
The 9 X 23 reamer can be rented at 4-dproducts.com
Clark
Member
Jim,
Yes, I mean the 9x23 is not registered with SAAMI.
I have never seen it on the list, and I read that it is not on the list, but I can't prove it is not on the list:
http://www.groundzerointernational.com/Nowlin.CDT.Commander.htm
So the 9x23 is like a wildcat with lots of good brass available.
The highest pressure associated with 9x23mm I have seen in print is 49kpsi.
Yes, I mean the 9x23 is not registered with SAAMI.
I have never seen it on the list, and I read that it is not on the list, but I can't prove it is not on the list:
http://www.groundzerointernational.com/Nowlin.CDT.Commander.htm
So the 9x23 is like a wildcat with lots of good brass available.
The highest pressure associated with 9x23mm I have seen in print is 49kpsi.
patentnonsense
Member
1) Since 9x23 is not bottlenecked, I'd really like to see a double-stack platform for it.
2) If .45ACP is just barely long enough, then almost any .45ACP or 10mm platform should be a candidate for 9x23, right??
(With suitable change of barrel, mag lips, extractor and ejector?)
Or am I missing something here?
3) Is there a table online for dimensions of standard cartridges? It'd be really useful for this sort of pondering.
Thanks,
2) If .45ACP is just barely long enough, then almost any .45ACP or 10mm platform should be a candidate for 9x23, right??
(With suitable change of barrel, mag lips, extractor and ejector?)
Or am I missing something here?
3) Is there a table online for dimensions of standard cartridges? It'd be really useful for this sort of pondering.
Thanks,
grendelbane
Member
The only thing that you are missing is the size of the breech face.
A Para-Ordnance in .38 Super would make an interesting candidate for conversion to 9 X 23 mm.
With proper magazines, so would an AR-15.
A Para-Ordnance in .38 Super would make an interesting candidate for conversion to 9 X 23 mm.
With proper magazines, so would an AR-15.
Clark
Member
I have a Tokarev and Star Super B in 9x23, but Para Ords are nicer guns.
I have a P10 in 45acp and the quality if high.
I wrote to PO in Canada about buying a 9mm slide, barrela nd magazine and converting to 9x23mm. They said the 9mm pistol had full length magazines and should work.
PO discontinued the P10.
It looks like the P10 is resurected as the Wart Hog, but not in 9mm.
They have larger 9mm guns that should work:
http://www.paraord.com/pages/pxt_highcap.html#warthog
I have a P10 in 45acp and the quality if high.
I wrote to PO in Canada about buying a 9mm slide, barrela nd magazine and converting to 9x23mm. They said the 9mm pistol had full length magazines and should work.
PO discontinued the P10.
It looks like the P10 is resurected as the Wart Hog, but not in 9mm.
They have larger 9mm guns that should work:
http://www.paraord.com/pages/pxt_highcap.html#warthog
Otherguy Overby
member
You could have SV build you one: SVI, Inc.
They also have interchangable breech faces: Change Breechface
I have one and it is a great pistol.
grendelbane
Member
My 9 x 23 experiment has been put on hold, although I did get 100 pcs of brass. Doesn't look like the rim is large enough for the extractor in my new gun, but looks like it might work in my old Colt. I thought I would keep it away from my lightweight Commander.
Did try a couple of .38 Super loads with Power Pistol. Alliant's data appears to be very conservative.
Winchester lists a load for 231 on their website! Lots of pressure, but my old .38 Sup could beat it in a drag race.
Not a lot of data out there about the 9 x 23. People are always putting down the .41 magnum and the 10mm as dead cartridges. Only the 5.5 mm Velo-Dog seems to be deader than the 9 x 23.
The history of the various 9 mm cartridges is amusing. I feel like the timing of the 2 World Wars, and the Great Depression had more effect on the popularity of the 9 mm Parabellum and the .38 Super than anything else.
If I had a time machine, I would like to go back to the turn of the century and chronograph some of the .38 ACP loads.
Did try a couple of .38 Super loads with Power Pistol. Alliant's data appears to be very conservative.
Winchester lists a load for 231 on their website! Lots of pressure, but my old .38 Sup could beat it in a drag race.
Not a lot of data out there about the 9 x 23. People are always putting down the .41 magnum and the 10mm as dead cartridges. Only the 5.5 mm Velo-Dog seems to be deader than the 9 x 23.
The history of the various 9 mm cartridges is amusing. I feel like the timing of the 2 World Wars, and the Great Depression had more effect on the popularity of the 9 mm Parabellum and the .38 Super than anything else.
If I had a time machine, I would like to go back to the turn of the century and chronograph some of the .38 ACP loads.
Clark
Member
The 9x23mm will alway have a following with guys who want a 1.3" 9mm at 50kpsi, with rifle like brass available from Winchester.
Not too many guys, just a few with too much much testosterone.
Not too many guys, just a few with too much much testosterone.
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