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A clear contrast (by me) using 6 o clock hold vs drive the dot sighting

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by lionking, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. lionking

    lionking Member

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    I love this SIG, it's a .45 Dark Elite model, the ONLY thing I don't like is the rear sight because it's adjustable but I have it raised as high as it will go. Really wanted to dial it in for 6 o clock hold, was thinking of getting a lower front sight, because it shoots low.

    However I came to terms today that it will be a "drive the dot" placing the dot center of target like other combat dot sight guns usually are. One thing I haven't tried is 185 gr ammo yet.

    But thought I'd show just how accurate this gun can be with 6 o clock hold vs drive the dot which I really struggle with drive the dot because it buries the target with the sight. But at least now I know I can keep most rounds in the black at least at 10 yards , testing it at 15 yards and 25 yards (lol) is next.

    The one round low is all me I felt my wrist limp as I fired on the drive the dot target.

    QuIoh4.jpg

    owSQPU.jpg

    yPPllU.jpg

    The next SIG I get is gonna be one of these, real adjustable sights for target shooting.

    rCNt7h.jpg
     
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  2. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    What does it do at 25 yards off the bench? That will tell you a lot about what's really going on. If the rear sight is all the way up and it's shooting 230 grainers low, you really might consider a shorter front sight. 185s will go faster, leave the barrel sooner, giving the gun less time to turn up with recoil, and so shoot even lower.
     
  3. lionking

    lionking Member

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    I know usually a lighter bullet grain will shoot lower however there have been times with some guns it turned out opposite, so just for the sake at some time I'm gonna put some 185gr through it just to see.

    I can bench it, maybe next time I will. It is just that in the past benching a handgun made little difference for example I benched my USP and then held it 6 o clock hold once with little difference, in the end how and where it shoots when I hold it is the end game.

    I still could get another front sight, it is a tritium night sight though, and doesn't have the usual marking or numbers of a SIG, I suppose I could call SIG and get help, the marking is MH3 AM, but at least now I will enjoying shooting it more now that I can at least drive the dot albeit less accurate than 6 o clock hold.

    OR manually raise the sight like a triangle dot using a 6 o clock hold haven't tried that yet and I am not really keen on it.

    XS25Pu.jpg
     
  4. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Speaking from experience, it sounds like you're planning to compromise. And whilst that seems okay now, later it will probably frustrate you.

    Shooting from the bench at 25 yards using a consistent hold (even if you just rest your wrists) will take out a lot of variables, and the increased distance will exaggerate the difference between Point of Aim and Point of Impact. So a tighter group at a longer distance. It should give you good measurements to work out how much shorter of a front sight you need.

    Then I'd see if Sig will fix the issue for you, by installing a front sight that works. If not, at least you'll know what height front sight you'd need for a hold that works better for you. Because honestly, if the gun came with an adjustable rear sight, I'd expect to be able to get whatever sight picture I wanted.
     
  5. lionking

    lionking Member

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    Agreed then will bench it next time and show the results. Yep would expect a adjustable sight to get where you want, internet research has told me the Dark Elite was only made for a while because many people had a problem with......the rear sight. Guess in a way I'm lucky because other people reported wandering zero problems.

    Everything else about the gun is just awesome.
     
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  6. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Good! That's been my experience with the 5 Sig pistols I have. Though I have had sight issues with one of them.
     
  7. Jonesy814

    Jonesy814 Member

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    Had trouble with my Shield shooting low at about any range. Struggled with it for a year trying to figure just where to hold the sights. I found that with 124gr ammo, it puts them right where that front sight is
     
  8. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Are you looking for a true 6-o-clock hold (tip of front sight at bottom of 7-ring at some chosen distance) or a impact-at-tip-of-blade setup? A lot of people (wrongly, IMO) call the latter a "6 o'clock hold."
     
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  9. lionking

    lionking Member

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    yes tip on the 7 ring (the black) like a bead on the top of the front sight.
     
  10. lionking

    lionking Member

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    With my Beretta 92, 115 gr was way low like the SIG with 6 o clock hold, tried 147 gr and using that hold it brings it right below the bulls so yeah grain can make a difference but also ammo brand to, Fiocchi is hot ammo but like the SIG and most other combat handguns with dots the Beretta is meant to drive the dot and when I do with 115 gr or 124gr it gets in center.
     
  11. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    My carry gun for the longest time was dead accurate using sight image 2 with the reference picture below. When I got my PPS it required sight 3 to have any semblance of accuracy that I was satisfied with.
     

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  12. lionking

    lionking Member

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    yes sight three (drive the dot) is what I need to do with most of my fixed dot sight guns, thing is though depending on the target used I like to use the B-16 unlike the photo you provided when the target is out to 15 to 25 yards the front dot hides the bulls so (for me) it will never be the most accurate constant aiming point. But hey, fixed dot sights like Beretta, Glock, SIG...ect are combat/defense guns not dedicated target guns.

    It will be interesting to see entries in this thread link below, some are better at it than me.
    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ular-leo-autoloader-10-shot-challenge.853691/
     
  13. CDW4ME

    CDW4ME Member

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    I disdain having to hold 6'oclock; either sight pic (hold/aim) 2 or 3 is acceptable to me.
    sightimages.jpg
     
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  14. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    A true 6 o'clock hold (image #1) can be wonderfully accurate if and only if the target exactly the same size and distance every time. It's not really useful if targets are at varying distances and sizes and shapes.

    For everything else, #2 is my strong preference.
     
  15. Reinz

    Reinz Member

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    I never have used a 6 o’clock hold. Not even in various competitions. It just doesn’t feel natural. Plus, that’s just one more thing to think about. But then again, I was never in the military and I taught myself to shoot a handgun.
     
  16. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    It is unequaled when the game is accuracy...bullseye, PPC, Bianchi Cup. I'll sometimes use the 6 o'clock hold during initial zeroing of sights as it allows the most consistent sight picture

    My preferred sight alignment is POA/POI (Sight Image #2)...that way I can see my intended target at longer distances, while not giving up speed at closer distances
     
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  17. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    For a very simple reason: it's easier to correctly and precisely identify the bottom of a dark circle than its very center. If you can't see the little x marking the dead center, it's quite difficult to reliably choose exactly the same point of aim within a black field. Most people can come fairly close, and some can come very close, but it's virtually impossible to pick exactly the same aim point every time, every day.

    But if the (apparent/subtending) size or shape of the target changes at all from what the sights are set to accommodate, then the true 6'o'clock hold becomes useless.
     
  18. ojh

    ojh Member

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    A pistol does not stay still in the hand of any living person. Therefore trying to aim too accurately to an certain exact point can be detrimental to accuracy, when the shooter feels he have to jerk the trigger during those passing moments when the sight picture appears exactly right. Therefore competitors in ISSF slow fire pistol events usually do not use a "true" 6 o'clock hold. They aim well below the black; how much is a matter of personal preference. It's called sub-six hold, or area hold. When shooting my target guns with fully adjustable sights, I aim about to the 4-5 ring below the bull. But I also shoot various pistols with fixed sights. Some of them have historical value and don't want to mess with their sights. In that case I just adjust my POA accordingly.
     
  19. roval

    roval Member

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    i prefer sight image 2 but my sig 220 has sight image 3 which bugs the heck out of me.
     
  20. Garandimal

    Garandimal Member

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    Yep.




    GR
     
  21. BC17A

    BC17A Member

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    With fixed sights I can understand someone changing up their normal aim, or "living with it". However, when you pay enough for a gun with an adjustable sight and have to max it out, that's unacceptable. I'd be placing that rear sight in the center of its travel, firing several weights of ammo, finding the average POI, doing the math to determine the proper front sight for that average, then calling Sig to have then send me that correct sight. Sig charges a premium for their pistols, the least they can do is make it good.
     
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