A close up shooting - warning bad language, how many is enough

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Suicide by cop.

What I carry -- what a lot of folks carry -- would not have stopped that guy with any immediacy. Eventually? Sure.

FWIW I am similar in condition to the deputy, except maybe taller. His response may not have been perfect but better than mine would have been. I have to wonder how many people would have not used a gun at all? The other guy only had a stick...

The social commentary is tragic in a whole different way. At least the person filming wasn't vilifying the deputy.
 
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The difference here and it's a huge difference is that a private citizen has the ability to disengage. The deputy had a duty to act. I could post a good critique of the deputies response but they would only be relevant to someone with a duty to act. The majority of the people reading this could and should use the Nike maneuver and disengage. A private citizen has no duty to deal with an EDP like that. Even if he had rammed your vehicle, the proper response would be to disengage once you saw that the person who hit you was an EDP. No one is going to charge you for leaving the scene of a property damage accident if you left because you were attacked.
 
The narration was interesting. Maybe when average people see the entire event unfold, they don’t vilify police as quick (or at all). It will be hard for anti police social justice warriors to twist this incident.
 
MEHavey said:
That, and 12 rounds w/o even a grimace make me suspect body armor.
Click to expand...

No I don’t think there was any body armor. Most people are conditioned to believe that being shot is an immediate fight stopper yet there are many accounts from people who have been shot that they didn’t even know they were hit until after the fight was over.
 
MEHavey said:
That, and 12 rounds w/o even a grimace make me suspect body armor.
Click to expand...
I saw pain and crazy determination:

upload_2021-2-8_16-16-13.png


At this frame, he'd already been shot numerous times and was just stumbling forward on crazy determination to be shot.
 
"...soaks up 12 rounds before he's stopped."

If the cop had shot 6 times, would it have taken longer for him to drop? If the cop had shot faster and made 18 hits in the same time, would he have dropped faster?
 
GEM said:
Tueller drill, when to shoot, humber of rounds you need, etc.

Note the bad language, tactics and social commentary.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/v...deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/
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I am not sure where this has much to do with the Tueller drill other than the bad guy advancing on the cop and both parties are stationary at the start. Deputy already has his gun drawn and on the subject (not holstered as in the Tueller drill). The deputy politely waits for the subject to re-arm himself with a stick. Subject is inside of 21' (not Tueller), well inside of it and the officer never attempts to be 21' or more away from the subject. The subject isn't trying to stab the deputy (not Tueller). The the two start a very slow progression once the deputy realizes the subject with the stick can reach him with it...which means the deputy was TOO CLOSE from the onset. The deputy is lucky the guy did not attempt to disarm him. The pair never move faster than a slow walk and the subject repeatedly beats the deputy before the deputy shoots him. So the deputy did not act on a lethal threat until he was already being beaten (not Tueller).

WrongHanded said:
"...soaks up 12 rounds before he's stopped."

If the cop had shot 6 times, would it have taken longer for him to drop? If the cop had shot faster and made 18 hits in the same time, would he have dropped faster?
Click to expand...

It depends. The subject was shot 12 times. Judging by the information in the video of the guy after he is down, many of the shots appear to be very close to one another. That means that shots were undoubtedly passing through already damaged tissue in some cases. Those shots effectively may not have added anything to the debilitation of the subject. A doctor that came to speak to one of our self defense classes suggested that based on his experience, that shots at least 3-4" apart did the most damage. Putting 3 shots into the same hole (as firearms schools often teach) doesn't result much in the way of new tissue being damaged. Most people don't have to worry about that is a gun fight because they can't put their 2 or 3 shots in the same hole or close to it, often because the shooter can't do it and because the target is highly mobile or reactive to being shot. This was a unique case of where the deputy and and the subject remained very much in close proximity to one other and in the same basic positional relationship to one another and the deputy landed (it looks like) at lot of his shots close together.

Where shots land will matter. A quicker result could have been achieved with a single CNS shot.

However, the more you shoot and hit your target, the more likely you are to speed blood loss and to physically break down the ability of the subject to function (locomote) properly. The more you hit the subject, the more likely you are to potentially make the one CNS shot that will be an instant stopper. The deputy peppered the guy's chest, many in the central area. At any time, the deputy could have gotten lucky and connected with the spine.
 
The Tueller reference was the fact, that if you train for that scenario, you learn to move off the movement axis of the attacker. The LEO had time and didn't do that. He backed up. If you know your stuff, you would have had a different option. Yes, it wasn't a classic Tueller with a knife for those pedantically minded, as the Internet brings out in people.
 
GEM said:
The Tueller reference was the fact, that if you train for that scenario, you learn to move off the movement axis of the attacker. The LEO had time and didn't do that. He backed up. If you know your stuff, you would have had a different option. Yes, it wasn't a classic Tueller with a knife for those pedantically minded, as the Internet brings out in people.
Click to expand...

Sorry I missed the link you were trying to make, undoubtedly because moving off the X or opening the distance to a threat are not unique to Tueller Drills and weren't even a part of Tueller's original writing. http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm

You are correct. The leo had plenty of time to do a lot of things to improve his situation and his safety and he pretty much failed to do most all of them.
 
Frankly the deputy looked like he couldn’t believe what was happening. Even if his last training was 20 years ago he would have been taught not to let a subject get that close and to move off line if charged.

It’s hard to make more of it then that from the 1 minute 24 second video of the end of the encounter.
 
We've been conditioned by our culture (and it's entertainments) to believe that one or two shots will end a life threatening encounter when that may not actually be the case in some circumstances (understatement)... What I learned myself (and both heard and read about...) was that a handgun is what you have in your hand - but I'd much rather have something more potent - and that's why on any hot call for me - it was my shotgun, period. A single center of mass impact from a 12ga with 00 buckshot would have ended the encounter right then. At least that was my real world experience in my one and only shooting on the street.

Every human animal is an individual and how each of us will react to a gunshot wound is not exactly predictable. There really are a few individuals that after receiving a life ending wound might actually come after you with bad intentions (serious understatement) with every intent of taking you with them before they finally go down... For me the Tueller drill was about that larger picture and, I was perfectly willing to outrun a threat if necessary. Not exactly something you'd see in a movie - but very practical when it's your life on the line...

It's been demonstrated over and over again that we revert to whatever our training was in very high stress situations and the officer backing away as the threat kept coming says it all to me. Bet anything he reacts differently if he's ever in that situation again.

Now for something that receives little notice - and it's the effect that incident will have on anyone in the officer's shoes. The psychological effects of surviving a life threatening incident - coupled with having taken a life are very serious for the shooter (and I can testify from personal experience that they're long lasting and really need to be addressed...). Put simply, taking a life is very bad for an ordinary person living in good circumstances. The best police outfits recognize that and have entire procedures meant to deal with what one book I read called "Afterburn". That book by the way, STREET SURVIVAL was my bible all those years ago - but I never read it until a few years after my one incident. The chapter on afterburn is well worth a read for any armed citizen because it might aid anyone involved in a shooting - or surviving a critical incident where friends, family, or co-workers didn't survive...
 
Many hunters can tell you of experiences where vital organs were destroyed, yet the animal continued to function.

I shot a large deer from the side with a .308, broke his shoulder and destroyed his heart and lungs and he was still able to run maybe 40 yards before he collapsed.

We also had a case where a security guard in a parking lot was shot 7 times with a .25 pistol. He then attacked his attacker, beat the living crap out of him, and was later able to testify in court against him.
 
For the moment, I'm continually checking to see any expanded info on Costlow (who was shot).
Nothing seems to be emerging to shed light on what triggered this bizarre series of events
that was spread along two miles of road before the end game.

Very quiet... more than a little strange that it is so at this point.
 
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