A close up shooting - warning bad language, how many is enough

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by GEM, Feb 8, 2021.

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  1. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I’m about to get pilloried for this question, I know, but nobody has brought it up so...

    The crazy guy dropped his weapon after the third shot. Legally doesn’t that make him unarmed and (mostly) no longer a threat? The deputy shot him nine more times while he was empty handed.

    I wouldn’t vote the convict the guy if he were charged (unlikely) but maybe after the 3rd or 4th round after he dropped the stick it’s time to just kick him in the knee?

    Edit: I think this video serves as a perfect occasion to share a poem about this particular situation.

    After three bullets go in a man’s chest
    To his head and his pelvis you should target the rest.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
  2. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Bigger, younger, not slowed, and a taser had been ineffective......
     
  3. NuShootr

    NuShootr member

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    Exactly. There a lot of people out there that can do a lot of damage with just their hands.
     
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  4. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The defender would have to have an objective basis for a reasonable belief that the attacker had the ability (among otheer things) to use deadly force--force that could be expected to cause death or serious injury--and that the defender had no alternative to the use of deadly force.
     
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  5. Armednfree

    Armednfree Member

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    I would tend to think not. Since there obviously was no physiological effect happening his drop was probably due to a sudden drop in BP, starving the brain of oxygen. The multiple right lung hits, 4 by my count, probably didn't hit a major artery. Therefore he lost lung capacity but that takes time to have effect.

    I'd believe those two in the upper left chest, probably the top of the heart or the left pulmonary artery, crashed his BP and that's what finally took him out. No matter how stoned or psychotic someone is, crash the BP and deprive the brain of O2 and it's done. How many deer have been double lunged and went a good ways. Simply because the circulatory system was able to provide O2 to the brain.
     
  6. Blue Jays

    Blue Jays Member

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    Paradoxically, the club became more dangerous after it broke and became shorter.
    It became more stout, way faster, more maneuverable, and capable of being thrust.
     
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  7. aaronu

    aaronu Member

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    Agreed... but it also became a shorter weapon.

    My question: as Joe Average Citizen I understand that I would have a duty to retreat in most states.... but what if I were too infirm, was bringing my significant other home from surgery, or had a kid strapped in a baby seat of my car 10 feet away? What would the reasonable and prudent course of action be?

    A stick is a deadly weapon but I don't know that the guy demonstrated deadly intent toward anyone except the armed deputy. Very likely the prior chaos was some kind of undirected rage.

    Does this come down to your local DA?
     
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  8. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    The duty to retreat exists only when retreat is safely possible.
     
  9. JERRY

    JERRY Member

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    suicide by cop it seems

    the deputy is probably going to be reassigned to the court house or retire.
     
  10. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I've never had to shoot a human, but I've watched quite a few deer and other game animals react to being shot, eventually go down and die. IME even with a perfectly placed shot from a big game rifle such as 30-06 there is a 10-15 second delay between being hit and expiring. Some animals lie down and quietly die, others run away, some attack the shooter. But even with much more powerful cartridges there is 10-15 second delay before it's over

    Using the timer on the video there was only 5-6 seconds between shot #1,shot #12 and the guy going down. I don't see this as a failure of whatever cartridge was used. The end result may well have happened at exactly the same time even if only 1 shot had been fired, or even if that shot were fired from a much larger caliber rifle. Of course I'm not saying the deputy was wrong for continuing to fire. He did the right thing.
     
  11. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    Rumor has it that it was a G17 with Speer G2s.
     
  12. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    Did he or did he not look as though he was still a threat? Looked like a maniacal person advancing on a law officer to me. Everything about him was threatening. If the cop had ceased fire and the adrenaline fueled maniac had lunged for the gun , then what?

    The threat must be neutralized.
     
  13. wcwhitey

    wcwhitey Member

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    What do cops do, they shoot to stop, once the decision to shoot is made you keep shooting until the threat is over. Obviously the situation was more than just the video, cars parked far away, this was a roaming and evolving situation. At some point the officer deployed a taser, has to get closer than 21 foot to deploy that. Once it failed the officer was now close and the situation escalated, as they do very easily. You cannot just keep your distance from everyone who is a threat, at some point you have to do your job. The officer did, he tried, this nut made a choice, the wrong one. I see no major failure in tactics. That the problem with all these less than lethal weapons. They don't always work, they are worth a try. Problem is now a days you are forced to use them before you put hands on a suspect. Its actually backwards, try to subdue first, then deploy because when they fail and you have to pull your gun you lose the ability to fight. Cannot fight with a gun in your hand, people would rather see you pepper spray, taze then shoot instead of applying a few proper physical maneuvers. This guy could have benefited from a good kick to the nuts and punches to the head. He may be alive right now. But that looks terrible on video.
     
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  14. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    I shot a human opponent, in 1993, in a situation with some similarities to this one, except it was a snatched* Streamlight SL-20 held high, in one hand, and a knife, chambered for a thrust, in the other hand. I am still trying to decide what to think and feel about incident in the OP. I would, also, like to know more about what happened before the video started rolling.

    I surely hated to see the deputy trying to walk backward. That rarely produces harmonious outcomes. Sadly, he may have been trained to do exactly that, because it works on a “square” range, (Better, usually, to move obliquely, or laterally.) I almost paid to go to one of the big-name shooting schools, until I learned that they emphasized the walking-straight-backwards retreat.

    I do not agree that it “took twelve rounds.” It may well have taken only one round; that being the best hit. Mediastinal hits take time to take effect, and many of the deputy’s shots may have hit outside of that area.

    *The Streamlight had been snatched from another officer, before I arrived at the scene.
     
  15. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I can't see where the deputy could have changed much. He pretty much was forced to keep shooting at center of mass because of the heavy traffic behind the target. He had to back up straight because of he was backing blind between traffic lanes. Perhaps he could have started shooting earlier, but I would have hesitated as well... .
     
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  16. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Yeah, he looked like a complete psychopath, and I would have kept shooting too. In fact, after about round six I would have started shooting him in the face. But you can’t deny the fact that the guy no longer had the stick and wasn’t even attempting to throw punches for the majority of shots. He was just advancing like a zombie and making enraged gestures. Gestures can’t hurt you.

    I really wonder how a prosecutor might try to sell this to a grand jury in a gun-unfriendly place like Maryland.
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    A big man who grabs your gun sure can.
     
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  18. shafter

    shafter Member

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    I've seen some posts referencing the failure of the deputy to follow his training such as never back up, move off the X, etc. The point to remember here is that people forget to do that. If it's just some little nugget of an idea in your brain somewhere you will likely forget. If it's something you practiced a few times at a training you attended you will likely forget.

    If you plan on doing anything right during the stress of a fight you must train and you must train alot. The proper reaction must be hardwired into your muscles so it happens automatically without conscious thought. Videos like this serve to remind me that it's not just enough to fill my head with tactics, I've got to put in the work to make my body remember the right actions as well.
     
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  19. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I can’t help thinking that a palm strike or uppercut to his chin with the left hand would have put him on the ground faster than those nine extra bullets. At some point when plan A isn’t working then maybe it’s time for plan B.
     
  20. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    From the young Mike Tyson maybe, but a taser and several deep holes had had no immediate effect.
     
  21. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    I can't help thinking that I would be unwilling to weaken my grip on my gun at that moment... .
     
  22. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    That is illogical. Using a less forceful technique? Giving the aggressor an opportunity to grapple?

    Monday morning quarterbacking at it's worst.
     
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  23. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    Lets try this :

    All the aggressor had to do to either prevent the shooting or to cause a cease fire would have been to stop advancing on the officer. Take a step back. Hands up would have been very effective... but just stopping the advance would probably have done it.
    He did none of those things. He forced the issue. Unfortunate , tragic , but true. The fact that he appeared deranged does not make him less of a threat - probably more of one.
    Pretty easy to second guess a cop from the comfort and safety of a keyboard.

    That cop got to go home that night. That is a good thing.
     
  24. aaronu

    aaronu Member

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    Well said. I said before the deputy did better than I think I would have... that is why I am in this subforum. Lots of insightful folks on here. But discussion like this can't help but lead to some armchair quarterbacking.

    This is somewhat similar to the 2018 killing in Seattle Center. The guy stabbed his ex-girlfriend (yes there was a restraining order). A CCW carrier -- not an LEO with a duty to intervene -- tried to detain him afterward but the guy just kept advancing and saying stuff like "shoot me bro". The CCW carrier just kept backing up until someone pepper sprayed the guy (didn't seem to do much) and he dropped his knife, after which the cops showed up and detained the bad guy. The armed citizen was not in trouble but easily could have been. If he had been forced to shoot, I don't know what the Seattle DA would have done. I also think if the SPD didn't know what the the situation was beforehand, it could easily have gone badly for the CCW holder.

    https://mynorthwest.com/1179134/man-who-held-off-seattle-center-killer/

    I agree with the earlier point about duty to retreat vs duty to engage. As a citizen I would not engage in either case unless I was in fear for my life or that of another. And if that fear isn't understood and accepted by a DA, jury etc then I am going to be deep in the brown stuff.
     
  25. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Less forceful? Where’s your evidence for that? Those bullets seemingly weren’t being very forceful in the immediacy of the moment. Guns aren’t some magic wand and poking a series of small diameter holes into him clearly wasn’t working. Unlike bullets gravity always works. Knock his center of gravity past the centerline and he’s 100% falling over backwards.

    Look, I’m not saying the deputy is a murderer, although I still think in Maryland you could easily find a prosecutor who would. That was my original and at the time only point. Now, based on some of the responses I do think I’m beginning to realize some of you regard the escalation of force continuum as some sort of gospel and feel that once you’ve pulled the trigger the gun is the only solution left on the table. It’s not.

    As I said, assuming I had kept my wits about me I would have started shooting him in the face at about round seven or eight. How many shots do you think you should put into center mass until you decide it isn’t working? All of them?
     
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