Quantcast

A couple of scenarios to discuss...

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by .455_Hunter, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,743
    Location:
    Colorado Front Range
    Here are a couple of potential defensive firearms scenarios for the THR continuum to ponder:

    Scenario #1

    A father and his adult son head-up to the hills for a Saturday night camping trip on public land. To access the camp site, they crossed a creek in a full-size pick-up and went about 300 yards to the dead end camp site. The area is in an open valley with broken forest on each side and zero cell phone coverage. They set-up the dome tent (room for 2 adults) and enjoy the evening, hitting the sack at 11 pm.

    At 1 am, they are awoken by the sound multiple dirt bikes reeving and roaring on the roads back across the creek. Soon, multiple and sustained fusillades of gunfire echo through the valley as the bikers discharge weapons in apparently random directions. The father and son quickly put on shoes and move into the trees less than 50 yards away.

    The father is armed with a handgun and the son is armed with a rifle and handgun. They each take cover behind a large tree, putting the bulk of the tree between their bodies and the bikers. It’s not even clear if the miscreants even know that the father and son are in the area, and the bikers have not crossed the creek to approach the campsite.

    Should the father and son:

    - Shine a bright flashlight towards the bikers to let them know somebody is there?

    - Discharge a warning shot(s) to let them know somebody is there and armed?

    - Wait it out until the bikers leave, throw the tent in the back of the truck, and get out of Dodge?

    Scenario #2

    A father and his adult son head-up to the high desert boonies for camping trip on public land in the middle of nowhere, again with zero mobile coverage. They arrive late, and pick a camp site in a grove of pinon pine and cedars. This time, their truck carries a slide-in hard side camper, but the healthy desert trees still obscure the full vehicle. They weather is cold, so they light the camper’s propane heater and start dinner at about 11 pm.

    While eating, they hear a series of pops coming from outside. The son, thinking the heater is acting-up, goes outside to check. As he rounds the side of the camper, he is met with “zip, zip, zip, BOOM, BOOM, BOOM” followed by debris falling from the branches above as the bullets passed through the trees. The gunfire is coming from several hundred yards away and being directed into the grove of trees. The father hits the deck in the camper, and the son hits the deck on the ground.

    The son is armed with a handgun, but the other guns on the trip were moved up to the truck cab temporarily to allow for dinner preparation and consumption in the relatively small camper. The gunfire continues, about on a cadence for a 30 round mag to be changed and then dumped.

    Should the father and son:

    - Shine a bright flashlight around the grove to let the shooter know somebody is there?

    - Have the son low crawl to the truck cab, retrieve a rifle for himself and shotgun for the father, conduct a rapid combat loading exercise, and discharge a warning shot(s) to let them know somebody is there and armed?

    - Remain on the deck until the shooter(s) get tired and leave (or run out of ammo), hoping nobody or nothing important gets hit?

    Your thoughts on these scenarios and the best courses of action…
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  2. George P

    George P Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2018
    Messages:
    5,866
    I had something similar to your second one with my wife in northern NV, I returned fire with my handgun to let them know someone was uphill; the shooting stopped
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    11,731
    Thanks for the post. I'll get to it in the morning
     
  4. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,120
    Location:
    Colorado
    Scenario 1 I'd get on the horn and call for artillery.

    Scenario 2 I'd hit the panic button on the truck and let them know someone was there.

    After that I'd play it by ear.
     
    benEzra, psyopspec, magyars4 and 3 others like this.
  5. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,120
    Location:
    Colorado
    Seriously, in the first scenario the bikers haven't done anything to make me think they're specifically targeting me.

    I'd remain under hard cover and observe I very likely not make my presence know. One of us would be on watch the rest of the night and I wouldn't leave until morning.
     
    danmc and JeeperCreeper like this.
  6. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2020
    Messages:
    540
    Some way of letting others know another human is there is fine. Firing blindly "at" the people you "think " are there is probably they most irresponsible and dangerous thing they could do. If they accidentally hit anyone else what are they going to say in court? Now if they just fire a few rounds into the ground maybe. Not sure this would not just make the kind of shooters who do this start more random fire though.
     
  7. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,572
    Location:
    Under A Rock
    For both scenarios, I would attempt honking the vehicle horns and lights... If possible safely and by keyfob if possible.

    I would assume both scenarios were other people being dumb and rowdy, not insidious.

    I would attempt to alert them, with a warning shot if possible to do safely if any kind of light was not possible.

    Not sure how legal or effective another shot is when someone else is mag dumping. Might get lost in the commotion as it is a similar noise.
     
    JTHunter, murf, DT Guy and 3 others like this.
  8. Ru4real

    Ru4real Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2017
    Messages:
    504
    Location:
    Utah
    In any situation like this you have to do something to let them know you are there, sooner rather than later. Once you’ve done that, your next actions are dependent on how and if they change their behavior.

    At night, lights and sound are your only options.
     
  9. danmc

    danmc Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Option #2 in both scenarios would be a violation of basic safety rules and unlikely to yield positive results.
     
  10. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    8,262
    Location:
    South Eastern Illinois
    I like the panic/horn. If that's not available, then a sweeping flashlight beam or strobe mode light.

    Since I often have dogs along, I also have a referee whistle. Not a bad thing to have in your backpack anytime.
     
    skoro, armedwalleye and entropy like this.
  11. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,572
    Location:
    Under A Rock
    Whistle is a great idea! FYI to anyone ever looking at a whistle, Fox 40 Classic is the way to go

    I used them exclusively when I coached and trained a few years ago. No little ball to lose and they are LOUD
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    11,731
    That's an understatment!
     
  13. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,121
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    I'd flank them and observe. (After retrieving the guns in the cab in #2) I have done so in similar situations. Never had to resolve one with gunfire yet. Once they understood shooting my way could be unhealthy for them, they left of their own accord. (BTW, this is precisely why I do not like hunting public land. Haven't camped 'in the wild' (non established campsites) in many years.)

    Position and firepower are better. If the key fob can be activated from an observation position, so much the better. In scenario #2, that incoming fire is a bit too close for my comfort, hence the flank and observe.
     
  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,120
    Location:
    Colorado
  15. entropy

    entropy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    11,121
    Location:
    G_d's Country, WI
    I've had two situations like Paul describes in the video, though both were while both parties were hunting, and both were in direct line of sight.

    In the first, two hunters were walking about 20 yards into some light woods, while I was walking a tractor trail on the edge. A blue jay got up from a branch just inside the woods, and I admit to starting to raise my 1100, until I realized it was a blue jay. the other hunters (both) fired when it was right over my head. They knew I was there. These 'hunters' were from a recent (it was the early 80's) immigrant population who did not respect Minnesota's game laws at the time, hence firing at a protected game bird. (and they would have ate had they got it, too.) My reaction was to go prone, transfer my shotgun to my left hand, draw my .357 Trooper, and point in their direction. (I was in knee- high weeds, so they couldn't see this.) Fortunately for them, they did not fire again. I waited for them to move on, then left.

    In the second, a guy was mad at us for 'taking his duck blind' (spot, there was no blind there, and it was on the water) , and set up 75 yards across the opening in the wild rice from us, tossing out his 6 dekes, them proceeded to sky bust at anything that came near, while yelling profanities when the ducks weren't flying. A flock of bills flew over and just behind our heads (bluebills fly fast and are quiet until close up; the original stealth duck), and he shot. We (Dad and I) ducked down, he threw open his ammo can, tossed me a 5 pack of 00 Buck, and said "Load 'em up, and if he shoots again, aim for the water line of the canoe." We both dumped the duck loads out and stuffed the 00 Buck in, then showed him the tops of our heads and bores of our 12 gauges over the gunwhale. He started paddling out, yelling about "Crazy SOB's!" , even left his decoys. We got back to our friends' cabin (he and his son were on the other side of the lake) and Dad described the guy to him, turned out the guy's cabin was 3 down from his, and yes, he'd pulled such shennanigans before. He wanted to go down and kick the guys butt right then and there, but decided to refer it to the Sherriff, whom he knew. (Dad and his friend were both cops) The Sherriff talked to the guy, and told him he's lucky we didn't sink his canoe or worse. He never bothered us again up there.
     
    Baybum and danmc like this.
  16. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,743
    Location:
    Colorado Front Range
    As some of you may have guessed, I fibbed a bit in the OP with the term “potential”...

    Both Scenario #1 and Scenario #2 are real-life occurrences experienced by myself and my Dad.

    In Scenario #1, it the summer of 1994, I was 18, and couple of months passed my high school graduation. The location was north of the old Caribou town site in Boulder County, Colorado, on National Forest property. My father was armed with a .22 Mag Ruger Single-Six and I had my Enfield No.4, Mk. II I had purchased just 4 months earlier on my first 4473, and my CZ-52 pistol I received from my Dad for my 18th B-day. This event pre-dates ownership of cell phones in my family, and the area is still a “hole” in the coverage map, being a high mountain valley at 10,000 feet. The truck in both event was my Dad’s 1977 F-250, so panic buttons on the key fob was not a thing.

    When we took-up the covered positions in the trees, my Dad admonished me to not fire, even if they crossed the creek and were still shooting randomly. Fortunately, they never did cross the creek, and we stayed hunkered down until long after the bikers fell silent. We never knew if they were camped nearby, or just drove off.

    We took the third option, putting the tent in the truck bed by starlight, do a quick scan of the ground with a flashlight for stray equipment and moved out- as fast as possible in 4WD on a 4WD mountain road. We had the guns ready to go in the cab, and once we crossed the creek and drove through the area where they had been swarming, the ground was littered with red 12 ga hulls not present when we earlier came into the location. We kept moving at accelerated rate for about three miles, stopping when we determined there was no activity following us and fully collapsed the tent for the drive back home at 4:00 am. As a side note, while messing with the tent in the truck bed, a huge piece of space junk re-entered the atmosphere right above us, going almost from horizon to horizon in slow moving light show with flamings chucks breaking-off. The two events are permanently intertwined in my mind- sorry.

    In Scenario #2, it was late hunting season in 1997 (?), and we were going to hunt elk in the expansive BLM holdings near Piceance Creek southwest of Meeker, Colorado. When I went out to check why the heater was popping in the cold and clear night, I was armed only with my .38 Enfield DAO revolver. Once again, no cell phone and no panic button other that doing it manually in the truck cab with a flurry of hand motions.

    We executed the second option- By that time, I had several years of Army training, so doing a low crawl to the cab was second nature. Sometimes, we brought extra guns along when hunting for fun, and the first thing I pulled out was my Norinco SKS, and used a 10 round charger for the first time under duress- it worked fine. I also grabbed my NEF 20 ga single shot and gave it to my Dad.

    Then the horrors of all horrors in defensive shooting pontification occurred- THE WARNING SHOT!!!!!!

    My Dad slipped a 20 ga birdshot round into the NEF, and during a longer pause in the shooting (mag change?), discharged it at a 45 degree angle into the air perpendicular to where the shots were being fired, essentially just being a noise maker.

    The shooting did NOT resume, and within about 30 seconds, we heard a vehicle absolutely peel-out and burn rubber getting out of the area. The next morning, we saw the tire tracks and a boatload of expended 7.62x39mm steel case on the ground. I doubt they even knew we were in the trees until hearing the 20 ga bark in the distance.

    This is one example where the warning shot worked perfectly to end a highly dangerous situation. While it was NOT a “typical” urban defensive scenario, it shows why absolute statements about armed defensive response are problematic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
    skoro, Baybum, JTHunter and 3 others like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice