A Couple of Thoughts About Kenya

[CA Raider]

There was a previous thread on the Westage Mall incident.
I'll offer a different perspective.
This comes from someone who knows that mall very well, and has spent a lot of time in Africa. Since that attack, I have carefully gone through the (very confused) reports about the incident. I doubt we will ever capture the whole truth - Africa is just too confused.

The people who survived that attack generally fell into one of three categories:

1. A lot of people headed for the doors and got out fast. Or someone encouraged them and they left the building pretty quickly.

2. A few people who got lucky, they were more or less frozen in place, the terrorists looked right at them, but moved on - and attacked other people. There's just no rational explanation for this ... it's luck.

3. At least one person who lay on the floor of the mall and played "dead". Then he left several hours later when things got quiet.

Pick your own strategy. The most effective was to leave immediately. The biggest problem was the fear and confusion, many frightened people, and no clear idea of where the exits were.

The single best thing that bystanders did - was a few brave souls stepped back into the mall and encouraged more people to leave. Don't forget there are mothers with kids in there ... you don't have to get into a shooting war to save lives. Just open an exit door and encourage someone else to get moving.

You will notice that none of these actions involved any type of shooting by the civilians (who were unarmed anyway). Shooting terrorists in a crisis scene requires a lot of skill and experience, and can go bad even for those people with the best training. Escape is a very good alternative.

Just some thoughts.

CA R

 

[MedWheeler]

There is actually a fourth category of survivors in these types of shooting situations, and that is those who were able to hide and go undetected by the shooter(s). Lots of places to "disappear" in most shopping malls.

At least one person who lay on the floor of the mall and played "dead".

Hmm.. maybe a new addition to my carry gear will be some ketchup packets. Bust 'em open, slather myself with the contents, and hit the floor. Might actually work..

 

[tepin]

Thanks for posting. I am thinking hide, evaluate then escape. Running through an exit blindly seems like a possible bad plan. Its a funnel point and thus a turkey shoot.

 

[CA Raider]

You are both right.
Actually, in a big place like a mall - hiding might very well be the best approach of all. It's highly unlikely that the terrorists could search all locations - they've got other things going on.

I don't think heading for the exits is necessarily bad ... just because you are running with the crowd. it's the old "safety in numbers things" - a few bullets are not likely to hit you. But there is some risk.

good suggestion.

CA R

 

[Akita1]

There is actually a fourth category of survivors in these types of shooting situations, and that is those who were able to hide and go undetected by the shooter(s). Lots of places to "disappear" in most shopping malls.



Hmm.. maybe a new addition to my carry gear will be some ketchup packets. Bust 'em open, slather myself with the contents, and hit the floor. Might actually work..

Agreed Med. There was a prominent and repeated story (there was also video) about the mother who made her two kids play dead until they were all rescued by a plainclothes cop (of some sort).

The thing that freaked me out was that the terrorists were apparently asking knowledge questions of the victims about Islam and if they got it wrong or couldn't answer, they were shot. Guess the terrorists reached a bit on the part about "Islam" meaning "submission" to the will of God…it's been a repeated mistake by we human beings about channeling the will of God, whatever religion. On another angle, they apparently have learned that killing other Muslims is giving them a bit of bad press. Go figure.

 

[lemaymiami]

CA.... very good post. It should be required reading everywhere. In dire straits E & E out of a shooting scene by any means possible (and just like soldiers are taught if captured, your best chance at escape will be as early in the process after capture as possible...).

I'll be interested to learn after all the dust has settled whether the shooters did take hostages for endgame use...

 

[CA Raider]

it's hard to put a clear story together. you can never get straight facts from Africa. I will share this though - and I have verified it through my own sources. The terrorists who did that mall attack tortured their victims very badly. I won't go into details ... but it's not a lot different than the kind of stuff that was seen during the Apache Wars. it's going to make this a very personal war for Kenya - going forwards.

CA R

 

[lemaymiami]

I'm a long way from Africa, sitting here in good circumstances with no particular threats on the horizon (except for foolish politicians)... I'm also slow, overweight and long away from back alley street work... In my opinion the Kenyans have every right to deal with this problem exactly the way the Israelis would - in every respect as long as the threat remains. I also hope that civilized countries give them every assistance needed (but I won't be holding my breath for that one...).

 

[armoredman]

The Dems don't want to bring up Kenya very much - Kenya apparently has a total AWB, semi or full auto, and handguns have to be licensed. Worked well for them.
I was also intrigued by the pictures from there - "security" personnel firearms are "diversified", so it seems.

 

[Cosmoline]

The most effective was to leave immediately.

This has also been my observation. The dogma esp. in the US schools and official buildings involves a "lockdown" where weak interior locks are used to divide up the space and make it much easier for authorities to clear the area. These do very little to actually protect the people inside from attack, of course. Esp. if you're dealing with a Mumbai style onslaught like this one. Not being there is the No. 1 way to avoid getting killed. Also being a moving target can help. But this makes life much more difficult for first responders, who have to sort through panic stricken mobs of people rushing from the building.

Personally I'd try to make a hole even if it means serious property damage. Then get out. To avoid friendly fire, strip off your clothes and raise your arms. A person with no clothes and arms raised is by definition not a threat. Nervous SWAT teams could still shoot you of course, but it would create red faces all around.

Shooting terrorists in a crisis scene requires a lot of skill and experience, and can go bad even for those people with the best training. Escape is a very good alternative.

Very true. It also requires something more than a little handgun. It's possible someone with a CCW can stop or delay one lone nutcase, though this has had decidedly mixed results in the US. Against a Mumbai attack it's at best suicidal, and at worst will draw fire down and get others killed too. A short gun could be useful for shooting door frames off to escape and help others escape. But against multiple, trained terrorists with a myriad of military weapons it's strictly a last-ditch measure.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Quote: At least one person who lay on the floor of the mall and played "dead".

Hmm.. maybe a new addition to my carry gear will be some ketchup packets.

One woman smeared blood from a nearby victim on herself and played dead. Whatever it takes to survive.

 

[freyasman]

From the reports of torture and mutilation, I'm thinking that if I couldn't get out, it might be better to go down fighting. Some things are horrific enough that I'd rather bleed out from multiple GSWs.....

 

[MedWheeler]

From the reports of torture and mutilation, I'm thinking that if I couldn't get out, it might be better to go down fighting.

This reminds me of an article I read once that discussed a hypothetical, no-escape situation involving definite, imminent torture, followed by just-as-definite murder. The article, which I cannot remember the source of, touched on the concept of the intended victim doing the unthinkable with himself and his loved ones..

 

[freyasman]

This reminds me of an article I read once that discussed a hypothetical, no-escape situation involving definite, imminent torture, followed by just-as-definite murder. The article, which I cannot remember the source of, touched on the concept of the intended victim doing the unthinkable with himself and his loved ones..

In a mall full of people, multiple exits, limited sight lines, and only about 15 attackers, I'm pretty confident I could get out of there, and the second I heard gunfire....I would. But in the unlikely event I got cornered, I gotta think it might be better to get shot to death than tortured, mutilated, and killed anyway. These aren't robbers or carjackers where you can give them what they want and hope they take it and go....

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

In a mall full of people, multiple exits, limited sight lines, and only about 15 attackers, I'm pretty confident I could get out of there, and the second I heard gunfire....I would.

Just a hypothetical, and not directed at you, specifically, but what would it take for you to decide that you were hearing gunfire and not something else? What would it take to shift you from "What is that?" to "Is that what I think it is?" to "My gosh, I'd better split!"?

 

[freyasman]

Just a hypothetical, and not directed at you, specifically, but what would it take for you to decide that you were hearing gunfire and not something else? What would it take to shift you from "What is that?" to "Is that what I think it is?" to "My gosh, I'd better split!"?

I've been a soldier for a long time, had a lot of AKs fired at me.... I start hearing gunfire and I'm not at the range, I'm moving towards an exit. I'll figure out what's actually happening, later and if I was wrong about it being a threat, oh well.... better a little bit embarrassed than a little bit dead.

 

[CA Raider]

"From the reports of torture and mutilation, I'm thinking that if I couldn't get out, it might be better to go down fighting."

that's very true now. and the message is probably sinking in for ordinary people in Kenya too.


"I start hearing gunfire and I'm not at the range, I'm moving towards an exit."

Very good policy.

CA R

 

[230RN]

Don't forget that most stores have a back entrance for receiving goods.

Sometimes it exits to the street, sometimes to a companionway leading to a community trash compactor and a loading dock, sometimes there isn't one at all.

But I've always kept that possibility in mind.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

Which is why when eating out I always like to enjoy my meals facing the main door while seated near the kitchen door...

Bang? I'm outta here...


Willie

.

 

[230RN]

^

Yes. I have a favorite seat in my favorite MacWendyKingCarl's where I can see the entrance and there's a big window in front of the kid's playroom where I can watch folks behind me in its reflections.

And there's a crash-barred exit within ten feet.

I don't weep and gnash my teeth if that seat's occupied, but I can't help wondering if whoever's sitting there isn't thinking the same thing.

And I check to see if he's printing.

Terry

 

[MedWheeler]

^^ My dad, also former LE, and I used to jokingly bicker over which of us got that "prime" seat when we'd go to McD's out where he lived (in the NM desert.)

 

[230RN]

^
That gave me a chuckle.

I don't know how much of this kind of subtle tactical stuff is taught in the firearms training schools, but working and having to park in and walk through the seedier parts of downtown Denver ("LoDo") for 16 years has taught me a lot of things.

I was even accosted once while still in the nearly-deserted bus terminal at the "east" end of the 16th street mall. A mildly defensive gesture with my cane, a frown, and a flaring of my nostrils allowed me to walk right between the pair of youts who were taunting me and trying to block me.

It's one thing to say "watch your six" but how do you go about that just walking down the street? It's one thing to six-watch in a full blown out shooting situation, but just for everyday shopping, eating out, moviegoing, etc.?

I found windows and the glass in cars are good for that, when possible. Shadows in the AM and late afternoon are helpful, too, and as I've mentioned, most stores have back entrances you can bug out of.

Better to leave the situation than to have to draw your gun.

Terry, 230RN