Quantcast

A friend and I had legally carried firearms confiscated tonight

Discussion in 'Legal' started by The Undertoad, Jun 15, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. StopTheGrays

    StopTheGrays Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    Location:
    WI
    So, for those of us that came in late (meaning me) was the issue in the first post resolved? If so how?





    And no, I do not want to wade thru 10+ pages of postings to find out.
     
  2. The Undertoad

    The Undertoad Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Messages:
    410
    Location:
    VA
    STG, look back about 9 posts. :)
     
  3. countertop

    countertop Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,640
    Location:
    At the diner
    Well, posted pretty quickly to this thread, left for a bit, and have come back to 13+ pags of comments.

    Glad to hear everything worked out all right.
    Welcome to THR PhilipVanCleave

    Yes, VCDL does a great service. I'd recommend everyone sign up or give them a donation. Operating right outside of DC their influence in the national debate is often times understated, but I find it to be powerful.

    As some of you may know, thanks to the strong leadership of Ken Cuccinelli, on July 1 residents of Northern Virginia will no longer feel like second class citizens and common criminals when they go to purchase firearms. Instead of waiting anywhere from three days to a week for the local police to slowly due a background church while alerting all of their commie mommie bretheren to out activities, the State police will now be handling background checks. The result:
    This is a tremendous development and we should all be thankful to Phil and VCDL for the work they have done to protect our rights.

    When I first heard this bill was going to pass, I thought about the proper way to celebrate. I decided that as I rode my bicycle home from work on July 1st, I would stop off at the National Pawnbrokers in notorioulsy liberal and anti gun Arlington, VA and purchase a new handgun. I put aside $400 just for the occaision. But as I thought about it, it dawned on me that there would be many other opportunities to purcahse a gun in Arlington and that I should instead donate the $400 to Sen. Cucinelli's re-election campaign. I even suggessted this over at Keep and Bear Arms

    After sitting down and reading all 13+ pages of comments to this great post - I have a better idea - one I hope you all join me with. I am going to still purchase a firearm on July 1st. Then I am going to openly carry it all the way back home. When I get home, I am going to sit outside on my front porch (weather permitting) and while still openly carrying, I am going to sit write out checks to both Sen. Cucinelli's campaign AND to the Virginia Citizens Defense League.
     
  4. countertop

    countertop Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,640
    Location:
    At the diner
    Perhaps sometime in the days ahead (July 1st anyone???) we can all get together and have a friendly Northern Virginia THR shoot off over at the NRA Range. Afterwards, of course, we would all need to caravan over to Starbucks while we openly carried.
     
  5. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Oregon, in the Willamette Valley
    Careful now,

    (sarcasm on)You'll ruin it for the rest of us. People don't need to see that sort of thing.(sarcasm off):p
     
  6. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    I'm not going to readthrough the whole thread of responses, but the first couple of pages showed me most of the trouble came from "open carrying" and allowing the sheeple to see your weapon.

    Whether it is legal or not, open carry in an urban setting just doesn't seem like the best idea in the world.

    I would not want anyone knowing I'm armed until I need it to defend myself with. I like that element of surprise and you don't have to worry about having it taken from you by the boys in blue or the BG's [ disarming ].

    Just a thought

    Brownie
     
  7. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2004
    Messages:
    2,276
    Location:
    Sedro-Woolley, WA
    Brownie, no offense intended, but if you had read the whole thread you would have seen that adding that comment was just beating the horse, not only after it was already dead, but had no flesh left on its bones (all of which were broken). Bottom line from this thread, some people feel like you do, some people think it's a good thing to open carry (even at the risk of having an experience like Undertoad's), and some people are ambivalent. Most people here have agreed to respect the other side's decisions even if they still don't really agree that is the best way.

    Anybody have that "beating the dead horse" similie? I've been trying to find it for a while now.
     
  8. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    sumpnz:

    Two diametrically opposed sides on carrying concealed or exposed [ whether legal or not ] sounds about right on this thread, and like I mentioned, I wasn't about to read it in it's entirety for that very reason.

    If you stick it in the faces of people who don't want it, there will always be issues with having to deal with a responses to a call from a concerned citizen [ whether that concern is warranted or not ].

    Those who would disagree that open carry will bring it's own issues down on you when out in public should probably either expect to make their point while being questioned or carry concealed so no one is the wiser and these types of issues go away.

    Sheeple who have it thrown in their face [ even when legal to do so ] and don't like it then become even more adamant that no one should be carrying at all ever which makes the road we are attempting to cross that much more difficult.

    Brownie
     
  9. Diggler

    Diggler Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,297
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    here it is... I will have to post it to my server sometime.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  10. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2004
    Messages:
    2,276
    Location:
    Sedro-Woolley, WA
    Diggler, thanks.

    Brownie, I've said my peace on this topic. I understand where you're coming from and I respectfully disagree on most points, while I agree on others. However, I don't want to beat this horse anymore, so I am going to cease commenting on this topic.
     
  11. JPL

    JPL Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,479
    "Sheeple who have it thrown in their face [ even when legal to do so ] and don't like it then become even more adamant..."

    In essence, be ashamed and hide is the extant argument here?

    I don't buy it, and I don't even own a gun.

    It could also just as easily be claimed that the "sheeple" may become less strident, and might even come around, if they see that legally carried firearms aren't immediately drawn and used to slaughter everyone in the building.
     
  12. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    JPL :"It could also just as easily be claimed that the "sheeple" may become less strident, and might even come around, if they see that legally carried firearms aren't immediately drawn and used to slaughter everyone in the building."

    I wouldn't count on that statement ever becoming true.

    As this thread exposes to the world, put it in their face, scare them, make them nervous and they will call the police who will then be in your face.

    All so that you can carry in the open? Seems a little bit of prudence would go a long way.

    Lets see, "if I do this, I'll get hasttled" or "if I do that, no one will know and I won't get hasttled" Guess you have to decide which side of the question you want to fall on, and then take the results accordingly, but don't come posting here or elsewhere that you were hasttled after the fact if you decide to open carry knowing what your actions will likely invite from the public at large.

    Oh well, lead a horse to water but [ hows that go? ].

    You don't have to buy anything, just have some common sense and expectations based on your actions, like the rest of us.

    Drawing attention to oneself is never a good thing unless necessary.

    Brownie
     
  13. cropcirclewalker

    cropcirclewalker member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Location:
    In the Woods close to Arkansas
    Mr. JPL

    This thread has gone back and forth, round and round, up and down, in and out between the open carriers and the ccwers.

    Lots of the ccw types either live in big cities, live in states where open carry is illegal, are leos or are afraid to assert their rights. Then they will tell us open carriers that WE will become the first target of the bad guy, or that we will get knocked over for our weapons, or that we will upset the sheeple.

    I asked a few days ago for some of them to cite instances of us getting knocked over for our weapons or the first kilt, but so far, none are forthcoming.

    You just hooked one that is afraid to open carry. There are others of us out here that aren't. Not to worry.
     
  14. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,238
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    I was in a pizza place last week with a friend. We were seated and eating when a cop walked in, open carrying and uniformed, and ordered a slice at the counter. Not surprisingly, no one reacted as if anything was wrong. Five minutes later, he left, and in walked another guy open carrying and ordering a slice of pizza, except this guy had on a T-Shirt that said "BRINKS". Again, no one reacted as if anything was wrong. Maybe those who would like to open carry ought to throw on a T-Shirt that says "BRINKS." :D You could probably go anywhere without causing a stir.
     
  15. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    Because one MAY do something lawfully [ carry openly in this case ] it certainly does not mean you are obligated to do so.

    The general public knows full well that cops carry openly, that brinks is inthe business of carrying large amounts of money and have armed guards working for them.

    A citizen walking into a public place carrying openly will harken peoples fears of what that persons intentions are, and probably bring with it the call to LE to investigate/respond to the scene. Those are the chances one takes when carrying openly in public in an urban environ, a fact, no more or less. One that needs to be recognized, thought out and a conclusion developed as to whether one wants to be interviewed by the men in blue who are responding to a complaint/concern from others [ per their job description ], or to conceal the fact they are armed in public.

    Myself, I would not want to walk into a bank openly armed whether I could or not dependant on locale. In Arizona, open carry outside the major cities is not that big a deal, inside Phoenix proper and you'll get unnecessary attention IMO. The locale, the demeanor of the local populace to firearms, the time of day all play a role as to whether you will be questioned about your actions.

    Lets ask this question based on the thread responses here:

    Do you think you can expect to be questioned about openly carrying a firearm at some time? If you answer yes and carry that way anyway, take the responses you receive to that action accordingly, and don't complain about the LE actions and responses.

    If you do not think you will ever be questioned about open carry, you likely do not have a grasp on reality.

    Brownie
     
  16. JPL

    JPL Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,479
    "Because one MAY do something lawfully [ carry openly in this case ] it certainly does not mean you are obligated to do so."

    It also doesn't mean that you should refrain from conducting your legal activity simply because your activity might upset someone.

    As I said, I don't own a gun, but I'm thinking serious about purchasing one and carrying it openly, as is my right under the law.

    I know the perfect place to do it, to.

    The Starbucks across the street from my office.

    The same one where these two boys were unlawfully arrested in the first place.

    As much as I have a serious mistrust of police and authority (child of the 1960s & 70s, don't you know), I also have a deep and abiding mistrust of people who advise taking the easy way out, simply because it is easy and won't rock the boat.

    Sometimes the boat should be rocked, and very hard.
     
  17. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,238
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    Yeah, so, like I said, have two things in your car at all times: a windbreaker with the word "BRINKS" in big letters on it, and a T-Shirt with the same word on it. Any time you feel like carrying openly, throw on one or both, and go to it. No one will call the cops on you, so no hassle. If someone does, you explain to the officer that you hold stock in BRINKS and want to get the name out in the public in the hopes of encouraging more people to think of BRINKS when they need to transport large sums of money. Might help to actually own a few shares, just in case. :D
     
  18. Edward429451

    Edward429451 member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,251
    Location:
    Colorado Springs Colorado
    Brownie makes a pretty good points. If you open carry you may as well plan on getting hassled. That's just the way things are, like it or not...

    On the other hand though, JPL has thought this through a little more or at least from a different perspective. No one ever won a chess game by resigning or proferring a draw. Playing this political chess game of carrying is an excellant example. If you play defensively, you will lose, one piece at a time until you don't even have enough material to put pressure on the opponent. "OMG, if I move my knight there (open carry), he might threaten it or worse, take it."

    :rolleyes:

    That's not how chess games are won folks. Chess games are won by increasing pressure on the opponent until you force his move to an unfavorable position thus giving you the advantage, positioning, and ultimately the win. They have us under a lot of pressure and in bad position right now. It's time to play some agressive chess.

    So the two guys made a strong rook move and the positioning flustered the opponent (cops) into making a mistake. So what will the guys do? Let the opponent take back the poor move they made and continue to play defensively to their ultimate demise? Har har har.

    They are playing to win. We must play to win or we are merely woodpushers. They should not let them get away with their poor move and take it back. They should play the advantage to the hilt and sue them. The advantage should be pursued and the pressure kept on. Maybe they'll lose key material over it, thus further giving us the advantage. There is no such thing as nice chess. You either play to win, or not. As Bill Jordan said, there's no second place winner. Sometimes the boat should be rocked very very hard, indeed.

    I've never resigned a game of chess. It aint over till its over. Brownie speaks good words from good positioning from the black team, to most opponents. But we are NOT most opponents and will not go quietly into the night.

    With all due respect to the black team, NO you can't take your move back.
     
  19. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,238
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    Edward429451, I like the way you think. Our rights only steadily contract when we play defensively in the face of an aggressive offense. At some point, we need to start playing aggressively too in asserting our rights, or we will lose them all in the end. Two choices, slow but sure defeat if we keep playing it safe, or possible victory if we play it aggressively and assert our rights at full tilt.
     
  20. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    Okay then, lets play devils advocate again.

    You open carry, you expect certain people will feel threatened [ the public ], may even be intimidated by the sight of the weapon on your hip.

    Hypothetical, you reach to adjust the holstered firearm, maybe checking the snap is still secure, the safety is still on, whatever [ you have touched the firearm ], someone then thinks you are making a move to access the weapon in public, or being less than concerned for fellow patrons who are becoming nervous, one PANICS, and calls the police.

    When they arrive, you simply state it is your right to carry openly and expect to be left alone very emphatically, you are testing the "system" and playing the chess game unnecessarily.

    Instead, the officers have a complaint from one customer. They take you out of the store to discuss what happened. You don't know what happened, you were sitting there having your coffee and doing nothing to your knowledge that was unlawful.

    His partner is interviewing the customers who remain in the store who were there when you looked to be fiddling with the firearm, perhaps snapping the snap as it was found unfastened, or you may have been grinning and looking to see who was actually observing you and several customers are under the impression you were taunting them, threatening them in some way by your actions.

    The two officers talk between themselves after the field inquiries are over with any witnesses to the event, They have statements from at least two people who were frightened by whatever it was you were doing [ touching the gun, looking around to see if anyone notices the "piece" you so proudly are displaying to the public.

    The officers then proceed to ask you a few more questions after they have conversed and compared notes. The one who interviewed you outside thinks your demeanor at being approached by him and your statements about it is your right to do so, blah blah blah seemed possibly one of defiance, and maybe in a way a disregard for others perceptions and fears.

    Once both officers are talking to you, you get a little bit more adamant that they are still questioning you and your actions and keeping you from your appointment of some kind you need to be at shortly.

    They can sense, or directly see [ or maybe hear if you are not that smart ] that you do not care what others think about your actions, after all, it's your "Right" to carry openly and to hell with the sheeple.

    Guess what, those officers [ in my state ] could arrest you for inciting the public by your actions. Mind you, not for the open carry, but by your actions while openly carrying.

    Reminds me of the song years ago: "I fought the law and the law one", forget the artist or group at this time.

    The officers in my state could take the firearm on the spot [ if we had open carry where this sceanario was played out which we do not ], arrest you for inciting the public and then when you balk you are being railroaded, setup, blah blah blah also throw in resisting arrest.

    It can get ugly real quick dependant on the attitude you show when the officers arrive and your subsequent demeanor with them at the scene.

    All because you chose to excise your right to open carry to the fullest extent of the law in lieu of carrying it concealed to begin with.

    Edward429451 and I have had some fairly brisk descussions in past threads on similiar subjects. I understand where he is coming from and it seems at this point he understands where I'm coming from, sometimes from totally different perspectives but always with respect for each others views.

    As Edward429451 stated, if you carry openly in an urban environ, you can expect to incite certain people by your actions. That will probably be followed by a response from the boys in blue [ or grey dependant on your locale ].

    I have no problem with people testing the system of open carry as long as they then do not make posts about how abusive the LE's were when they respond to a complaint from another citizen concerned for theirs and their families safety in your presence in public.

    It is going to happen eventually and you can expect to be answering questions based on your actions in public if you carry openly often enough and long enough.

    Too many people in this country believe we left our "dodge city" and the old west practice of everyone carrying openly behind us a long time ago and get quite nervous at the sight of a firearm openly displayed in public.

    It's your right to do so [ law permitting ], and I will defend your right and mine to do so to the end of time. That does not in any way negate the fact you can expect to be questioned often enough for it to be a PITA eventually.

    It comes down to simply this in a nut shell. You can excercise your rights and at the same time actually be violating others rights in some way. Your rights to carry openly do not nor will they ever trump others rights should they be intimidated by your actions and in fear of you based on your carrying a firearm openly.

    Play the game, but do not complain here that the law had no right to question your actions, as they most certainly do have an obligation to respond to others fears [ part of the job ] and most certainly will do so with vim and vigor as a firearm is always a potential threat to themselves when they roll up to the scene as well.

    To each his own, I personally do not feel the need to carry openly in some form of thought process that "it's my right and I'm proving a point to eveyone who sees me so I feel better".

    I'll keep mine concealed if for no other reason than out of respect for others probable fears and phobias about anything to do with weapons in general.

    It's prudent, non confrontational, and I'm armed and capable of protecting myself if need be which is the main reason we carry a handgun, and not carrying openly for the purpose of proving a point to the sheeple of the world, because it's my right, or any of the other numerous funny reasons that have been explained here in the past.

    To each his own. Make sure when the boys roll up, you don't "adjust" that sidearm by touching it [ thereby subconsciously defying them in your mind ], as things could get ugly.

    Those who have the means to protect themselves do not necesaarily have to prove they are capable of doing so by showing the world they are "heeled".

    It's a common sense thing, not an ego or defiance of authority thing as some would then make it out to be. It's about having the means to protect yourself only [ thats why we carry right? ], and not soem machismo attitude that now that you can you certainly are going to and hell be damned if you will be told otherwise.

    I'm unclear why people feel the need to show anyone they are armed in the first place. It's no ones business I'm armed or when I'm armed or what artillery I may be carrying, or how many.

    Hey, that raises another question, suppose one of you really does wantto play the game, how about one opr a few of you out there carrying three guns in different positions on your belt. Maybe strap on a shoulder rig, wear shorts and have an ankle piece to boot.



    Brownie
     
  21. Smurfslayer

    Smurfslayer Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,296
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    It's worth noting that we're talking about Virginia here folks, not some socialist enclave of liberalism. Law prevents concealing a firearm in alcohol serving establishments, so we're required to open carry at least part of the time. Open carry is practiced here far more than the antis would have you think, and the "doom and gloom" predictors of the Apocolypse if you are busted open carrying are inevitably proven incorrect. These guys got AN APOLOGY from a POLICE OFFICER! Go back and reread that last sentence.

    We don't "Get Hassled", I routinely open carry in the presence of Fairfax county officers, periodically, state police and have never received anything other than respect and courtesy.

    In Virginia, our idea of 'getting hassled' over open carry is when a cop says

    'Dude! You can't wear kydex here! Go get some leather, this is Mortons!'

    or

    signs that read

    "Please, our establishment tries to create an atmosphere of class and elegance. For our benefit, please wear only stainless, nickel finish or chrome plated firearms in fine leather holsters"

    :neener:
     
  22. brownie0486

    brownie0486 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,330
    Location:
    Superstition Mountain, Az
    As alcohol and guns don't mix well through recorded history, I think thats a pretty bad example for open carry myself sir.

    Drinking while carrying? Where's the intelligence in that no matter what locale we are talking about?

    Brownie
     
  23. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2004
    Messages:
    4,238
    Location:
    Florida, CSA
    First off, I didn't read that to imply that he carried openly while drinking. He is required to carry openly (if at all) when in a drinking establishment, i.e., regardless of the fact that he's drinking a coke and not alcohol. Get it?!!
     
  24. cropcirclewalker

    cropcirclewalker member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Location:
    In the Woods close to Arkansas
    It's too bad that "the Boys in Blue" don't have the strength of will or the intelligence to tell the "alarmed, incited citizenry" that Open Carry is legal and to mind their own business.

    Seems like none of them would ever have the 'nads to run in one of the sheeple for creating a disturbance. Just proves what I have been saying.

    Cops like those are really gun controllers at heart. Ok for thee, but not for me.

    :neener:
     
  25. Cacique500

    Cacique500 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,275
    Location:
    Georgia
    He didn't say he was *drinking*. If you go into a restaurant that serves alcohol in Virginia you are not allowed to CCW even with a permit. You must pull back your suit jacket and have your pistol in the open. It's a stupid law that we're trying very hard to change. Please dont picture us belly up to the bar slamming shots with a pistol carried openly on our side.
    :scrutiny:

    I frequently go to restaurants and have no choice but to open carry. And some of the nicest restaurants in downtown Richmond are in some very seedy areas.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice