A friend and I had legally carried firearms confiscated tonight

[Lone_Gunman]

I understand that open carry is legal, but why would you want to do this and cause all these problems in the first place?

A $50 holster is better than a $400/hr lawyer.

Open carry generally will upset people, whether its legal or not. I think you got screwed by the police on this one because it doesn't sound like you did anything illegal, and I hope you get off, and agree you might want to sue them over this.

I am curious, though, why did you want to carry open instead of concealed?

 

[OF]

Sounds like Lonnie has this figured out. Sounds like you guys have a good group there in the VCDL.

- Gabe

PS: Do we really want to have another 'open carry is your right' 'you're an idiot for open carrying' argument all over this poor kids thread?

 

[Selfdfenz]

Undertoad,

Best of luck with the legal issues. I hope you get your hardware back in the same condition you surrendered it in. If your firearms weren't ballistically printed before they will be now me thinks.

I have to agree with many here in that what you did, while legal, might have exemplified poor judgement. Why did you you think a Starbucks nerd would know open carry was aok? Logic dictated the cops would likely get called. Did you have a plan to address what you would say to the police before you got out of the car? 5Ps apply

On second thought why did you think the police would know what you did was legal? Their actions indict they did not! The mindset of many in LE is enforcement oriented, ie they figure out what law might be closest to one that is being violated and enforce that one...and let the courts sort it out later.

Lotta hassle for nothing and now there are a bunch of nullons at Starbucks that think OP is illegal.

S-

 

[Diggler]

On second thought why did you think the police would know what you did was legal?

Uh, 'cause it's their JOB!

Lotta hassle for nothing and now there are a bunch of nullons at Starbucks that think OP is illegal.

Not after he gets it thrown out, and retires on his settlement and spends his days at Starbuck's open carrying. They'll get used to it.

 

[The Undertoad]

Thanks guys. Already contacted the VCDL, who are trying to get it thrown out as false arrest. If that fails, I think I'll go the lawsuit route. I guess I'd better not say anymore until this is resolved....

 

[OF]

why did you think the police would know what you did was legal? Their actions indict they did not!

Lotta hassle for nothing

Nothing?! The kid is (in the most pure sense of the term) exercising his rights. A right which has atrophied to the point where it might not come back at all. And if you've read anything that Lonnie posted about the VCDL, people exercising this right is having a very positive effect. Exactly the effect the founding fathers said it would. Exercise your rights or lose them. This one is on the ropes, and this kid and the people Lonnie's posts discuss are on the line exercising the right and it is coming back! At least in that community. The cops are going to re-write the training curriculum to include 'don't harrass open carry guys'. How is that not an amazingly positive and encouraging direct result of open carry and putting up with the headache it causes in the short term?

I can't think of a better example in support of open carry than this thread. It puts to bed the arguments of all the 'don't rock the boat' nay-sayers yapping about 'yes it's your right, but boy are you dumb for doing it'.

They are changing the police training over there to include support for your RKBA! How can you not absolutely love that?!

- Gabe

 

[OF]

PS: Getting the police straightened out (and at least one magistrate so far) opens the door to showing the rest of the community (Starbucks included) that we're not a bunch of whack-jobs. Once you can be assured that the police are not only not going to bother you in this community, but if they get a call the person who called is going to get straightened out...think about it. It's awesome.

 

[OF]

I guess I'd better not say anymore until this is resolved....

Probably a smart move. But remember: if you need anything, there are people here who can help. I'd PM or call Jim March for advice if you need to ask for more help. You can do it privately and he'd be the guy to point you in the right direction.

- Gabe

 

[Bubbles]

I live in NoVA and have carried a firearm, both open and concealed, for years in the area where he got picked up. Reasons for open carry include:

- Concealed carry is not legal in VA in a restaurant that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption. However, open carry is legal in these establishments (long story - law changed in 1995). Until this law gets amended so permit-holders can carry concealed in a restaurant, open carry in Virginia will continue, if only to educate the "sheeple" and certain LEO's.

- The LEO's I've dealt with in Loudoun, Prince William, Fairfax, Arlington, and Richmond have been well aware that open carry is legal.

- Finally, if exercising a right is too much of a hassle or carries with it the threat of arrest, do we really have a right any more?

Remember that it may not have been a Starbucks employee who made the 911 call. A customer with a cell phone could have done it as well. Make sure you get a copy of the tape!

Also, if you're going to carry openly, keep a cell phone and a good defense attorney's business card with you.

 

[El Rojo]

I am from California. I will go ahead and join the bandwagon that even though you can open carry, why go to the hassle. Here in California we try not to rock the boat too much. We didn't fight the Californian assault weapons ban, because who really wants to take an assault weapon to the firing range or national match shoot. We didn't fight the handgun safety bill because they were just trying to make our handguns safer and who wants an unsafe handgun?

And the end result is California is a much better place to live than Virginia. Why you wouldn't even have to worry about idiots open carrying into a Starbucks here. Heck, you don't have to worry about any law-abiding citizen carrying at all.

Yeah, what on earth would make you feel like living a life of freedom and liberty. Dumb college kids.

[/satire]

 

[sendec]

Get a lawyer

Shut Up, anything you say can and will be used against..........

Check and see if "firearm" is defined elsewhere in the chapter containing that statute. Most codes had a definition section at the beginning of each unit. While the definition in that particular section may not match there might be another that does. Uh oh.

The real challenge will be selling this episode to a potential LE employer, who is interested in things like judgement and the propensity for excessive use of force and grandstanding. I'd start working on a story about why you felt it necessary to walk into a suburban Starbuck's visibly packing when you could have prevented this by pulling your shirt out or locking it in your car and getting your mochafrappalattechino to go. Yeah. it may be your "right", but that does'nt mean that it is the most right thing to do. Police executives will be far more interested in your judgement than your weapons collection.

Why do we insist that the vast majority, who could'nt give a rodent's posterior about guns, bend to our will and accommodate our desire to relive the good old days? I expect that gun carriers and cell phone users should accommodate ME, and keep it out of sight and earshot and dont let me see or hear it unless it is an emergency.

 

[flatrock]

I understand that open carry is legal, but why would you want to do this and cause all these problems in the first place?

A $50 holster is better than a $400/hr lawyer.

Open carry generally will upset people, whether its legal or not. I think you got screwed by the police on this one because it doesn't sound like you did anything illegal, and I hope you get off, and agree you might want to sue them over this.

I am curious, though, why did you want to carry open instead of concealed?

Why does it upset people? Because they've been led to believe that only criminals and police carry guns.

If we are forced to hide our guns because it makes people uncomfortable then we've given up our right, and we're allowing the gun control crowd to continue to groom the public for more gun control laws.

 

[ScottS]

I understand that open carry is legal, but why would you want to do this and cause all these problems in the first place?

A $50 holster is better than a $400/hr lawyer.

Open carry generally will upset people, whether its legal or not. I think you got screwed by the police on this one because it doesn't sound like you did anything illegal, and I hope you get off, and agree you might want to sue them over this.

I am curious, though, why did you want to carry open instead of concealed?

"Now, Rosa, gets back here on the back of the bus before you get in trouble! The back of the bus gets there just the same. Why would you want to do this and cause all these problems in the first place? The front seats is for the white people. Sitting up there will upset people, whether its legal or not."

I knew I had heard this argument somewhere before.

Rights aren't rights if you're afraid to exercise them because of the "hassle."

Scott

 

[Waitone]

I question the wisdom of open carry even if it is "legal." You are the one who has the problem. You get to clear the mess up. You get to use your money. You pay the consequences for any malfeasance by LE.

In other words you have everything to lose.

That said, get a good lawyer and let him deal with LE.

Pay particular attention to what happens to your record following this event. You want to go into LE. If your record is in any way affect by your open carry games, you may have well just screwed yourself.

Open carry: a loser of a way to make a point.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Everybody's got opinions and here is mine.

GET A LAWYER!

As far as I can tell, you shouldn't have even been charged, as you weren't in violation of the law you were charged under

This is SOP for cops and DA's. They are hoping you will plead to a lesser charge so they will get a conviction, any conviction.

DON'T DO IT!

Go on the offensive. File whatever lawsuits you can, constitutional violations, whatever. File a civil suit also, unlawful arrest, mental anguish, time lost from work, incapable of performing marital duties. Ask for big $$.

My .02

 

[HankB]

GET A LAWYER.

In addition to the arguments regarding false arrest, civil rights violations, etc., he can advise you whether or not criminal charges should be preferred against the LEOs who arrested and charged you on the grounds of strong arm - or even armed - robbery.

GET A LAWYER.

If this was me, I wouldn't just let this slide with a halfhearted apology and return of my property . . . just like law enforcement wouldn't let it slide if I took someone's property (i.e, stole it) if I later agreed to return it.

GET A LAWYER.

 

[Zundfolge]

Why do we insist that the vast majority, who could'nt give a rodent's posterior about guns, bend to our will and accommodate our desire to relive the good old days?

Yeah ... we should just shut up and enjoy our ride from the back of the bus.

:banghead:

 

[Werewolf]

ScottS being very wise pointed out quite correctly that:

"Now, Rosa, gets back here on the back of the bus before you get in trouble! The back of the bus gets there just the same. Why would you want to do this and cause all these problems in the first place? The front seats is for the white people. Sitting up there will upset people, whether its legal or not."

I knew I had heard this argument somewhere before.

Rights aren't rights if you're afraid to exercise them because of the "hassle."

Scott

OH MY GAWD!

Someone actually gets it! A right not exercised because it is a hassle or upsets others is no RIGHT AT ALL just like ScottS says!

That's really not such a difficult concept to understand.

To those that are against open carry because it rocks the boat I say - you are as much a part of the problem as any anti is. Rocking the Boat is what it takes more often than not to make things happen.

How do you think the current restrictions on RKBA got to where they are today? Because a few very vocal folks who were anti-RKBA rocked the boat. Now they're in the majority and if we don't rock the boat right back at 'em then the boat will sink right along with the RKBA.

To steal from another THR'r that we all know and some love I'll just sign off with:

WererockntheboatisnotalwaysabadthingWolf

 

[ScottS]

The good news is this happened in VA. The VCDL is the model for state gun advocacy groups, and the guy who runs it, Philip Van Cleave, is fighting the good fight for all gun-owners.

I'm confident they'll get to the bottom of it, without advocating he "avoid rocking the boat."

Scott

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

When (not if) you sue, you should also demand compensation for any future earnings this situation may have cost you in your career in law enforcement.

 

[MBG]

Andrew,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I think the guys at the VCDL will help you get this sorted out very quickly.

Personally, I have open carried at that particular Starbucks once or twice with out trouble. I'm thinking that maybe I should do it more often.

In Virginia, legally all the management of Starbucks could do is ask Andrew and his friend to leave. All the police could legally do was enforce that request. The counter kids and customers may not have known that, but the Fairfax county police certainly did.

For those who say that good judgment means concealment, I've heard similar arguments from people to leave the piece home. And to leave it in the safe. And to get rid of it entirely. I guess we all draw our lines in a different spot.

Ten years ago, Virginia was well on the road to a Maryland like set of gun laws. It took a lot of public activism to get that turned around. And it takes public exercise of our rights to keep it from happening again.

Marty

 

[wingedmonkey]

At the risk of sounding redundant, GET A LAWYER. Gardiner is a good choice. The moral of the story is, know your surroundings. Starbucks is very anti-gun and most beat officers only know the Code based on the "table of contents" method.

It's a misdemeanor so the case will be heard in General District Court. Do not go without a lawyer well versed in the firearm section of the Code of Virginia.

 

[sendec]

OK, OK, you win. Go ahead and wander around Target and Penny's with you guns hanging out, after all it is your right.

Of course, that weird dude on the corner who wears nothing but a thong, and the guy who sticks a crucifix in a glass of pee and calls it art, and the kid at the stoplight whose radio is set to 11, they are just exercising their rights, also.

Several religions recognize the Swastika as a symbol. I have the right to wear it on a shirt, or emblazon it on a bill board. Have I lost my right to free speech by not doing so? I think not. I recognize that many people would find my exercise of said right as being offensive, and courtesy dictates absent exigent circumstances that reasonable people should not aggravate other reasonable people. (Note that this is for the purpose of example - I am not a member of any religious or political group in which the Swastika is used)

I am really intrigued by this fascination for open carry. No one in this example has stated anything about the reasons behind it, other than "it is a right." What possible practical rationale is there for open carry in a Starbucks? Who is up for open carry in church? There you may have a much greater "need" for the gun, and I will bet that many people do, (Anybody from JPFO want to chime in?) but how appropriate is that?

I think the invocation of the Rosa Parks example is also intriguing. I am not a member of the ACLU or NAACP- how many of you belong to either?

The fact that we have an absolute right to keep and bear arms does not mean that said right should note be tempered. None of the people on this thread who "disagree" with the initial premise have said that he should not carry, just that he should be discrete about it.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

The question I asked earlier, that has yet to be answered, is why someone would want to open carry.

As far as I can tell the best answer so far has been that it is just to exercise a right.

If so thats fine, open carry and let freedom ring.

But why would you want to open carry instead of concealed carry? What is the reason, or advantage, of carrying open?

 

[Graystar]

You didn't mention what county this happened in. Check packing.org to see if your county is one with grandfathered prohibitions.