A friend and I had legally carried firearms confiscated tonight

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Context carpet bagger, context...

Gun Show at fairgrounds..person walking with gun....alarm bells?...probably not....

Here in Alaska...person gets out of truck in Anchorage, wearing hunting clothes, filthy dirty, has 44 on hip, goes into ToGo Mart....naw, hes just goin about his bizness...

Person walking into Nordstroms with AK in hand? Calling 911....

Rant....

A lot of my problem with open carry is the "in your face screw your sensibilities I do what I want despite what others think" attitude associated with it...then again I feel the same way about flag burning, signs at marches that say "we are Here, we are queer, we are coming for your children", people holding placards with aborted fetuses, people holding "Burn in Hell Reagan " signs and all the other accoutrments of todays impolite society.

I prefer my freedoms and rights excersized quietly and politely. I dont piss on crucifixes ,wipe my ass with the flag, parade down Main Street with a Machine Gun or try to make loud statements. That convinces nobody except the fellow travelers crowing about how great it is...if ya think you are convincing a soccer mommy that carrying a gun is OK by tossing it in her face you are dead wrong. People are convinced by reason and by mature reflection not by confrontation.

If I wanna convince a soccer mommy, or a so called "blissninnie", Ill invite em shooting, not flash guns at em in Barns and Noble. I wanna establish my view of the second amendment, Ill write my congressperson, join a party, get involved...not rant on the internet.

If half of you spent as much energy working through the political system as ya do raising your fists saying right on becasue a bunch of college kids who cant even pay their own legal fees provoke idiot cops into confiscating their guns we'd be in a hell of a lot better shape with respect to attitudes towards firearms...

Rant off

WildandallmybrassisresizedhoorayAlaska
 
WildAlaska,

I think the reason so many people disagree with you is because you seem to think that you know exactly what is best and that all other opinions are substandard to your own. You are entitled to that opinion, but that doesn't mean anyone has to accept it. You don't have to agree with open carry, that is fine. You can make all sorts of wild assumptions and make grand generalizations about people who open carry all you want. Just re-read your post before this one. You are talking about tossing guns in people's faces and generally attempting to incite a flame war. You have been consistantly doing so through out this thread.

The one thing you haven't seemed to notice is that no money was spent on this young man's encounter with the law. He doesn't have to have money, he resolved the issue without having to hire a lawyer. He didn't spend any time in jail. There will be nothing on his record. He won. And all you can talk about is how he supposedly threw a gun in a soccer mom's face? Talk about blowing the situation out of proportion in order to advance your agenda.

Again, I appreciate these two young men and what they did. You don't have to if you don't want and we would appreciate it if you just let it be. We know open carry might not be the best form of carry. Hell, we would all carry carbines around underneath our jackets if we could. However, we continue to carry around little pocket rockets or full sized 1911's and they still don't stack up to a good rifle. Yet we do it anway. Not everything in this world has to be about what is best or what is most efficient. That is why we live in a free country, where people can decide for themselves what they want to do. So if I wouldn't open carry, nothing says these two guys can't open carry. And if they want to accept the responsibility for doing so, then let em. Why is that so hard to understand? If you don't like it, deal with it. Organize a way to ban open carry if you are so opposed to it. Otherwise do us all a favor and go do something productive with your time other than get down on two young men who had the guts to exercise their rights and when they were confronted with adversity, they justly prevailed. You would think we would be supportive of these two for standing up for all of us? Instead we make wild accusations and broad generalizations and jump to all sorts of conclusions that really have no merit. :barf:

You know, for all of the talk about how people who open carry make themselves a target, I think it would be nice to have at least one reference where someone was taken out first or at all because the bad guy saw they were packing. Just one case would be a good start.
 
The fact that he was embarassed, humiliated, and cited over open carry may in fact be a way for the Legislature to take action next year on this issue. VCDL is already planning a line of attack next year in the legislature.

VCDL Alert Update:

18.2-287.4 STRIKES AGAIN!

New VCDL member Andrew King and a friend, William Coggin, both
college students were unlawfully arrested for open carry at a
Starbucks in Northern Virginia by Fairfax county police on Monday
night.

Apparently another patron called the police on her cell phone and was
shrieking hysterically at the dispatcher about 2 men with a gun.
Seven patrol cars arrive and Andrew and William are taken outside.
Their guns are confiscated and they are detained for an hour as
police try to figure out what to charge them with. Andrew was asked
if they could search his car. To his credit he said, "No." That
issue was then dropped by the police (to their credit).

Finally, the police came up with a charge - YOU GUESSED IT -
18.2-287.4 carrying a loaded firearm in a city with a population over
160,000...

Sigh.

Both Andrew and William, who had acted politely through the whole
incident, were given a ticket to appear in court for a class 1
misdemeanor and released.

Andrew emailed me that night and I responded to him, asking for
details (officer's names, badge numbers, William's info, etc.)

Tuesday morning I called the precinct where the arresting officer
worked and left a voice mail for the captain. I politely told him
who I was, that his officers had unlawfully arrested two law-abiding
young men, told him to read the definition of 'firearm' in
18.2-287.4, and to read the arrest report. I asked that the charges
be dropped immediately, stating that if this actually went to court
that an unlawful arrest lawsuit would certainly follow.

I didn't hear back from the Captain, but later Tuesday evening I
called the precinct. The officer that answered the phone knew all
about the situation and said that the charges WERE BEING DROPPED and
the arresting officer would be calling both young men and apologizing
for his misinterpreting the law.

I personally called both Andrew and William and told them the good
news. I told them to be sure and get their guns back ASAP and not to
accept any kind of runaround or delay in doing so.

I also talked to William's mother, who was concerned about the
incident. She seemed quite relieved when I emphasized that William
had done nothing wrong or illegal. On the contrary he had been
careful to obey the law as he exercised a valuable constitutionally
protected right here in Virginia. The fault, I told her, was
completely with the police not knowing the law. Her son, I said, had
acted like a gentleman, handling the situation as good as could be
expected.

Andrew is a new member and had not visited the VCDL site yet, so he
was not familiar with the battles that VCDL has been battling with
18.2-287.4. I told him to download a copy of that law and keep it
with him.

I REPEAT TO ALL OF YOU: it is wise to keep the highlighted copy of
18.2-287.4 from the VCDL web site with you and it would be smart to
memorize the key parts so you can speak intelligently on that law if
you run into an officer who is attempting to misuse it on you.

I got an email on Tuesday night from Andrew. Indeed the arresting
officer did call, apologized for the mistake, lectured them on open
carry (this cop doesn't know when to quit pushing his luck, does
he?), and they both went down and got their guns back. They were
assured that the ticket was completely destroyed and there would not
be any kind of record except the police report, which does not refer
to them as suspects.

I was glad that the police saw the light and dropped the charges
swiftly, saving these two young men undue stress and financial
hardships awaiting trial, but I am still angry over the treatment of
Andrew and William. But at least the ordeal was over in less than 24
hours.

Of course it is not over for VCDL. I will be asking one of our
attorneys to write a letter to the Fairfax chief of police asking him
to please explain 18.2-287.4 to ALL his officers so we have no more
false arrests. I am also shopping around for a delegate or senator
to carry a bill to strike 18.2-287.4 altogether. At a minimum the
wording needs to be fixed once and for all. But striking it is what
should be done and that is what VCDL will be looking to do. In that
sense what happened to Andrew and William will be powerful ammunition
in getting rid of that terrible law.

Well a couple of weeks ago we educated 9 officers and 1 magistrate in
Richmond. Now we are going to probably add a whole lot of Fairfax
police to that list.

If this happens again, a false arrest lawsuit would definitely get
the attention of a lot of police departments. Let's hope it doesn't
come down to that.

***************************************************************************
VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
(VCDL).
VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
dedicated to
defending the human rights of all Virginians. The membership considers
the
Right to Keep and Bear Arms to be an essential human right.

VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org
 
Wildalaska

Rant....
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If I wanna convince a soccer mommy, or a so called "blissninnie", Ill invite em shooting, not flash guns at em in Barns and Noble. I wanna establish my view of the second amendment, Ill write my congressperson, join a party, get involved...not rant on the internet.
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Rant off
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This is irony...I can tell. :D
 
Undertoad and WMC, glad to hear things worked out for you both. VCDL is a great organization, and im glad they were able to step up to bat for you.

Undertoad, as for selling your guns, here is a great counter argument for your parents. "Mom, Dad, your right, these guns are bad. I will go sell them right now. I will now spend all my free time in college drinking, drugging, and doing my best to make a grandchild for you. Thank you for showing me the truth". If that doesnt put things in perspective for them, nothing will. Personally, college life is stressful enough, without taking away one of the more relaxing hobbies I have. I mean shooting other peoples guns are fun, but not the same as shooting your own. Plus, its pretty hard to conceal carry for sd purposes, when you dont own a firearm :(.
 
Three facts which Widlalaska won't let interfere with his opinion:

1) VCDL is a strong advocate of open carry. As a group, they open carry often, both individually and en masse.

2) VCDL regularly educates ignorant LEO's as to the law in VA. Read their VA-Alerts. They regularly "stack up" apologies from the LE Agencies involved.

3) VCDL has tremendous success in passing gun-friendly legislation in their state. Again, check their website or subscribe to their alerts. Their legislative track record is astounding.

From from "ruininig it for all of us" or "tossing it in their faces," they are doing exactly what they intending to: educate the public and ignorant LEO's that the gun-carrying world is not "divided into two groups: cops and badguys." I'll say it again, IMO they are the model for a gun rights advocacy group.

Although it would never occur to me to burn the flag, it is legal. And if someone wants to do it, they shouldn't be arrested for violating some non-existant law. And if someone called 911 to say,"OMG, there's a guy burning a flag, I would expect the police to be educated enough in the laws their were sworn to uphold to say, "So? Nothing illegal about that."

Scott

Wishes the VCDL were a national organization
Glad this thread stopped drifting into "Well, if I pointed it, but not right at you should that be illegal? Huh?"
 
If the parents don't accept the guns, they do not except the child as an individual. Leveraging their support for college expenses only has merit if further extravagance with additional guns, impacting the parents, is curtailed. Existing guns, if indeed paid for in full, are a done deal and should remain. A minimal compromise, if necessary, for example if guns have been purchased extravagantly, would be to retain at least one gun. It will be up to the child to have and enforce boundaries. Selling all the guns would be a sign of dysfunction in the family, but it is hard to say from a distance exactly how this should go.

A test of exactly what the parents have in mind is to make it known that shooting would continue regardless. Are they after the financial impact or are they after the guns?
 
I will take some small credit for bringing Philip's attention to this particular thread and getting him to register here. (unless of course, Toad and WMC did that before, if that is so, the credit goes with them). :)

Whatever may be the case, welcome aboard, Philip!
 
"THERE THEY ARE, THEY'LL SEE YOU!!!"
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gee, i wonder which NVA MMM member y'all freaked out in Starbucks?

Any bets on when a Fairfax County Open Carry repeal bill gets proposed by her friends?
 
Glad to be here

Looks like quite a chat board! BTW, I had two people in quick succession Tuesday morning bring this thread to my attention and both suggested I come up here to comment. Now that I am registered, if there are any other threads in the future that I might be missing that VCDL should know about, don't hesitate to contact me to come check it out. I appreciate the kind words about VCDL Lonnie, Sparticus, and Scott.
 
Any bets on when a Fairfax County Open Carry repeal bill gets proposed by her friends?
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I sincerely doubt that'll happen, as she probably already thought it was illegal. And even if one of her friends brings up the fact that it is, what on earth are you saying? That we shouldn't exercise our rights out of the fear that we might lose them?
 
While I'm not much of a gun person, I must admit that I'm rather disturbed at the theory that people shouldn't, as a matter of course, do what is perfectly legal under the law.

That's a very poor precedent to set for oneself and our society.
 
This particular statute defines the banned "firearms" as follows:

For purposes of this section, "firearm" means any (i) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine which will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (ii) shotgun with a magazine which will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered.

Thus, if the firearm does not fall within this definition, and these individuals were otherwise acting lawfully (and open carry is lawful in Virginia) then the state has no criminal case against them.

The charges should be dropped and the firearms returned, and there may be a civil rights cause of action against the officers and the police department under 42 U.S.C. 1983. The right to carry open in Virginia is clearly established, and under an analogous U.S. 5th Circuit case, involving the open carrying of a knife, a 1983 action was upheld.

Unless a person wishes to be wrongly convicted for a crime they did not commit, it would be very foolish not to hire a lawyer. These individuals should most certainly engage counsel to represent them. A class 1 misdemeanor may carry a sentence of up to one year imprisonment and a fine of up to $2500. VA. CODE ANN. 18.2-11.

These individuals should contact the NRA's General Counsel's Office at 703-267-1250.

STEFAN B. TAHMASSEBI
Deputy General Counsel, NRA
 
And even if one of her friends brings up the fact that it is, what on earth are you saying? That we shouldn't exercise our rights out of the fear that we might lose them?
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Nah. I got the impression he meant that whenever they ran into a law they didn't like, they started shouting "Repeal Conceal" and "Halt the Assault" nonsence. Maybe they'll get a pink Hundai and drive around Fairfax County shouting "Close Open Carry."

Scott
 
Looks like quite a chat board! BTW, I had two people in quick succession Tuesday morning bring this thread to my attention and both suggested I come up here to comment. Now that I am registered, if there are any other threads in the future that I might be missing that VCDL should know about, don't hesitate to contact me to come check it out. I appreciate the kind words about VCDL Lonnie, Sparticus, and Scott.
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I only wish we had your organization out here in Washington. WCDL could kick butt and take names in the Legislature.
 
Treylis:

I respectfully disagree with my fellow Arizonian …

I suspect that most of the anti-gun folks in Virginia think open carry is illegal, and if or when they find out differently they will mount a campaign to outlaw all open carry (we don’t live in the wild west anymore, etc.). I also predict that they’ll be supported in this by many of the state’s law enforcement organizations and news media.

Does this mean that pro-gun people in Virginia should give up open carrying their guns? Well not necessarily, and that’s a decision each individual will have to make for themselves.

But everyone should understand that “defending the right†in the manner advocated by some is sure to lead to a fight in the legislature sooner or later. So Virginia gun owners had better get ready for it. They had also better realize that the forces that will be aligned against them are powerful ones, and this is a battle they could lose.

While I believe that we should be steadfast in defending our legal and civil rights regarding these issues, I also agree with WildAlaska’s point that one doesn’t win by antagonizing or frightening the general population who’s support we need.

We may advocate our "rights" all we want, but the hard truth is that they can be, and often are restricted or eliminated by statutes, and these statutes have been upheld by the courts. Anyone who doesn't think so should try open carry in New York City or Chicago.
 
Unless a person wishes to be wrongly convicted for a crime they did not commit, it would be very foolish not to hire a lawyer. These individuals should most certainly engage counsel to represent them. A class 1 misdemeanor may carry a sentence of up to one year imprisonment and a fine of up to $2500. VA. CODE ANN. 18.2-11.
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Well, you're a little late. The charges are already dropped.

Toad and WMC, I would suggest giving the General Counsel's office a call, and see if you can in fact persue a 42USC1983 case against the officers involved. The fact that the cop gave you a "stern lecture" against open carrying totally destroys their credibility and gives credence to the idea that Fairfax will continue these actions against people just because.
 
We already have a patron for repeal/fix

Delegate Cole from Fredericksburg has already stepped up to the plate to offer to fix/repeal 18.2-287.4 (I will talk to him in July at a VCDL picnic to work out details). He monitors our VA-ALERTS and stepped forward.

BTW, all the anti-gun organizations in VA know open carry is legal here. Issue comes up every year when we try to repeal the restaurant ban. The anti's say "they can just open carry in restaurants," hoping we will be to shy to. Of course, they anti's are unhappy that so many are actually doing so they tried to disallow all carry in restaurants, but they got creamed in committee.
 
I suspect that most of the anti-gun folks in Virginia think open carry is illegal, and if or when they find out differently they will mount a campaign to outlaw all open carry (we don’t live in the wild west anymore, etc.). I also predict that they’ll be supported in this by many of the state’s law enforcement organizations and news media.
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News media, maybe.

Law enforcement...no. Remember that the anti-gun portion of the state is around Fairfax/Arlington and generally the area closest to DC. I think Philip can answer Old Fuff's call on that one. Most of the chief law enforcement officers (that is, Sheriffs and Chiefs) outside of the NoVA area are very pro-second amendment, and quite aware that open carry is LEGAL.

I don't live in Virginia, but most of my ancestry and a lot of mother's side of the family call the Commonwealth home. Believe you me: There is no way in hell that what you state may happen willl happen in Virginia. The road in Virginia is one towards liberalizing gun laws.

For example, starting on July 1st, 2003, laws against open carry by grandfathered local ordinances were declared inapplicable against CHP holders and holders of licenses from recognized states. As of July 1st, 2004, the laws will be totally PREEMPTED. You have a very strong pro-rights organization that will call any local official to the mat and tell them that what they are doing is illegal, and that they will SUE if they don't comply. Every time, the localities back down. If we had VCDL-like organizations in every state (Oregon Firearms Federation and Ohioians for Concealed Carry are two notables for being extremly effective), we wouldn't have had any problems getting open carry bans repealed, and so on.

A lot of people are suggesting that we shouldn't "rock the boat" by open carrying where it is perfectly and totally without a doubt legal. Well, it used to be 35 years ago that two people kissing in general if they are of the same sex were arrested for "disturbing the peace" because of the idea of hecklers veto was very strong back then. Do you think gay rights activists told people to stop doing it to keep bigots from passing more laws? No. They sued, they fought, and they won, and now, I'm a US Supreme Court case away from being able to marry my partner.

Gun rights organizations should realize, as VCDL has realized as well as gay rights organizations a long time ago realized, that no amount of grovelling and kowtowing to the anti-gunners will satiate them. They will not stop until we are all disarmed. If we show any sort of weakness like what some people are suggesting by not excercising our rights, then they will win. The only way to win is to throw their stupid ideas in their faces, and do what we want within the laws, and tell them to pound sand.

Toad and WMC, you should not only make an example of the officers who did this, you should also make an example of the woman who called the police and shrieked. What she did was no different than defamation of your character. You start going after these shriekers, and make them REGRET IT. Sue them until they cry uncle, sue them until you own their homes, their cars, and have garnished their wages for life. Make that woman an example that if you make a false complaint, you will pay for it with your livelyhood. If you do discovery, find out who made the complaint, the cell phone number, and the address. Find out from the police report what the woman's name is, and then go after her legally and financially. She is civilly negligent and liable. MAKE HER AN EXAMPLE!!!
 
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