a great horrible example of the possible results of resisting LE

[old lady new shooter]

While this is not a case of a person defending himself or others interacting with LE afterwards, it does show how resisting LE can sadly end up. A man who actually was not the person police were looking for was stopped while on foot in a Phoenix parking lot. He did have an outstanding felony warrant but LE at the time didn't know about the warrant because since he was on foot they had no way of knowing who he was. He kept asking what this was about, but the officers didn't answer. At that point he freaked out and began resisting, in response to which multiple officers held him down on the asphalt for over 4 minutes. Being that the ambient temperature was 114ºF, the skin on multiple areas of his body literally cooked off / melted. He is suing Phoenix PD for $15 million. You can see all this in the video.

 

[The Night Rider]

What video?

 

[wayneinFL]

Michael Kenyon?

Man ‘cooked on asphalt’ set to sue Phoenix PD for $15M

A man who suffered third-degree burns across much of his body after Phoenix officers pinned him face-down on the scorching-hot pavement has taken the first s...

youtu.be

I don't see where there's a tactics and training lesson here. When they ask for your papers, just show them your papers.

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't see where there's a tactics and training lesson here

There is indeed. If any citizen must deal with law enforcement, as will anyone who has been involved in aa use of force incident of any kind, this is relevant.

 

[old lady new shooter]

What video?

Aarrgh, can't believe I omitted the link. I see the next post found and posted it, thank you @wayneinFL.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Michael Kenyon?

Man ‘cooked on asphalt’ set to sue Phoenix PD for $15M

A man who suffered third-degree burns across much of his body after Phoenix officers pinned him face-down on the scorching-hot pavement has taken the first s...

youtu.be

I don't see where there's a tactics and training lesson here. When they ask for your papers, just show them your papers.

Honestly I also didn't see one, but I was encouraged by someone here with whom I privately shared it, to post it here.

 

[shafter]

It's such a simple thing to comply with law enforcement and avoid all of that. If you wish to assert your rights do so verbally, politely, and calmly. If they violate then take it up in court later.

Also another good reminder of why avoiding physical conflict is such a good idea. Rolling around on 115 degree black top results in everyone losing.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, the dangers and risks of coming into contact with hot pavement are well known in such places where that kind of summer heat occurs. Resisting the efforts by police of being taken into custody & cuffed can, understandably, involve being forced against a nearby wall, vehicle or down onto the ground, etc. Not resisting is an alternative, and a choice.

A little more info than the video, which really seemed to want to focus on the suspect's injuries and claim.

Phoenix man suffered burns when held down by officers during triple-degree heat

A man suffered third-degree burns this summer when Phoenix police officers held him down on the pavement for four minutes on a day of triple-degree heat.

apnews.com

Wonder how much the attorneys will agree to accept as a settlement out-of-court?

 

[luzyfuerza]

There definitely are tactics for interacting with law enforcement in situations like this.

Many states have "stop and identify" laws on the books. These laws stem from two supreme court decisions: Terry v Ohio and Hiibel v Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. But each state's laws are different.

My state's "stop and identify" statute says that police may detain a person when in a public place if they have RAS or PC to believe that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime or infraction. Once detained, that person must provide their name, address, DOB, and an explanation of their actions. (https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title77/Chapter7/77-7-S15.html?v=C77-7-S15_1800010118000101)

In my state, "what is this all about?" is the wrong question to ask. Instead, ask "am I free to leave?" If you are told that you are not free to leave (because the officer is detaining you) then providing the information described in the statute is required.

Providing this information verbally is sufficient; in my state, the statute does NOT require presentation of ID. The person need not provide any other information to the officer, or answer any other questions, in the course of their investigation.

Different standards apply to interactions involving vehicle drivers and their passengers. Or when a person is not in a public place.

This is just a brief summary of my state's requirements, and possible associated tactics. Your state's requirements are almost certainly different. And the tactics you choose to implement during interactions with police should likewise almost certainly be different.

One place to start learning might be:

Stop and identify statutes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[old lady new shooter]

There definitely are tactics for interacting with law enforcement in situations like this.

Many states have "stop and identify" laws on the books. These laws stem from two supreme court decisions: Terry v Ohio and Hiibel v Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. But each state's laws are different.

My state's "stop and identify" statute says that police may detain a person when in a public place if they have RAS or PC to believe that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime or infraction. Once detained, that person must provide their name, address, DOB, and an explanation of their actions. (https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title77/Chapter7/77-7-S15.html?v=C77-7-S15_1800010118000101)

In my state, "what is this all about?" is the wrong question to ask. Instead, ask "am I free to leave?" If you are told that you are not free to leave (because the officer is detaining you) then providing the information described in the statute is required.

Providing this information verbally is sufficient; in my state, the statute does NOT require presentation of ID. The person need not provide any other information to the officer, or answer any other questions, in the course of their investigation.

Different standards apply to interactions involving vehicle drivers and their passengers. Or when a person is not in a public place.

This is just a brief summary of my state's requirements, and possible associated tactics. Your state's requirements are almost certainly different. And the tactics you choose to implement during interactions with police should likewise almost certainly be different.

One place to start learning might be:

Stop and identify statutes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Thank you for posting this very valuable information!

 

[lightman]

Why not just do what they ask you to do?

 

[jmorris]

PSA

Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police!

Really funny video from the Chris Rock show on how not to get your ass kicked by the police.I know they are other versions of this on YouTube but this one is...

www.youtube.com

 

[lemaymiami]

Everyone has the right to sue over a government action that injured them... Whether anyone other than the lawyers involved will benefit remains to be seen. In my experience - most with a warrant outstanding are well aware that they're risking arrest out in public in any encounter with the police and their behavior reflects that. Hope the good guys prevail - and in this instance - that's not the guy suing, in my opinion.

PS. in my career, towards the last five or so years I was off the street and acting in a mid-management capacity most of the time. A few years of it included being in charge of my outfit's internal affairs matters. Great fun, and you could always count on this or that incident generating a complaint - sometimes legit - many times not exactly. It wasn't hard to spot the ones that intended to sue - the initial complaint usually began with the statement that "my lawyer sent me...".

Must admit that my experiences make me the last guy any lawyer wants to see on a jury...

 

[shafter]

Not to steer the thread too far off course but I keep going back to that hot blacktop. It's an excellent reason to train some grappling so if you get knocked down with someone on top of you you can get up without getting cooked.

I understand that not everyone will have the physical ability to train but even knowing a couple of sweeps that you have locked down solid can help a ton even if you don't have a large skill set. A few private lessons at a BJJ school could get you started with some occasional refreshers on some sweeps, breakfalls, and getting back up to your feet. You don't have to be an athlete for these to work.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Why not just do what they ask you to do?

Because you cannot simply assume that police, and other elements of the criminal justice system, are acting consistent with the law, department policies, and your best interests.

Not every officer is like Dudley DoRight. Some, unfortunately, are more like Lisa Steed.

Judge dismisses DUI case citing trooper's dishonesty

The credibility of a highly decorated Utah Highway Patrol trooper took a big hit Tuesday. And because of that hit, future and past cases investigated by trooper Lisa Steed may likely come under increased scrutiny.

www.ksl.com

Steed was eventually fired for having lied about DUI-related investigations. DAs had to reverse convictions that were based on her testimony.

UHP pulls Steed off streets over 2nd DUI case

For the second time in a week, a decorated Utah Highway Patrol trooper's credibility has been found lacking, leading to the dismissal of criminal charges against someone she investigated.

www.ksl.com

When your freedom and good name are at stake, you cannot trust the police and "do what they ask you to do."

You have to understand the rules, and act accordingly. You never know whether you are interacting with Officer DoRight or with Trooper Steed.

 

[shafter]

Because you cannot assume that police, and other elements of the criminal justice system, are acting consistent with the law, department policies, and your best interests.

Not every officer is like Dudley DoRight. Some, unfortunately, are more like Lisa Steed.

Judge dismisses DUI case citing trooper's dishonesty

The credibility of a highly decorated Utah Highway Patrol trooper took a big hit Tuesday. And because of that hit, future and past cases investigated by trooper Lisa Steed may likely come under increased scrutiny.

www.ksl.com

Steed was eventually fired for having lied about DUI-related investigations. DAs had to reverse convictions that were based on her testimony.

UHP pulls Steed off streets over 2nd DUI case

For the second time in a week, a decorated Utah Highway Patrol trooper's credibility has been found lacking, leading to the dismissal of criminal charges against someone she investigated.

www.ksl.com

When your freedom and good name are at stake, you cannot trust the police and "do what they ask you to do."

You have to understand the rules, and act accordingly. You never know whether you are interacting with Officer DoRight or with Trooper Steed.

You still have to do what they say. They're often wrong, from ignorance of the law and sometimes defiance of it, but resisting will be dealt with by force and you will not win and it won't help you later in court. Better to verbally state that you don't consent and let the courts figure it out later. There really isn't any other reasonable option.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Sure, obey when police order you to "get out of the car", or "put your hands behind your back". Or similar.

The subject in the OP resisted arrest, and he won the stupid prize of four minutes frying on Phoenix asphalt. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE RULES.


But, @shafter , it is important to recognize that citizens do NOT have to do EVERYTHING that police tell them to do. Consider the following:

1) Citizens should consider carefully the statements they make to police and the questions they answer. Officers might ask you to make a statement, or intimate that it is in your best interests to answer their questions now. Example: "This is the best time to tell your side of the story. Tell me what happened." This is a soft order, but an order nonetheless. Citizens are under no obligation to "do what they say".

In this forum, this example should come as no surprise to anyone.

Note that "stop and identify" laws are a notable exception to the "keep your mouth (pretty much) shut" standard for police interactions.

2) Another example: "I need to make sure that you are good to continue driving. I have some tests that I would like you to perform. Do you have any objection to that?" State laws vary, but in my state, I'm under no obligation to submit to field sobriety tests. And, there are no penalties associated with this refusal.

Lisa Steed's employer required her to conduct field sobriety tests before ordering drivers to submit to a breathalyzer. This is because without the PC developed during field sobriety tests, it is very difficult to legally demand that the driver submit to a breathalyzer or blood test. In my state, there ARE legal consequences associated with refusing an order to submit to a field breathalyzer or blood test. Steed repeatedly violated policy and the law when she turned off her body-worn microphone and took drivers out of view of her dash-cam when she skipped the step of conducting field sobriety tests, and then made unsubstantiated arrests.

3) Yet another example: "Do you have anything illegal or dangerous in your car? Would you mind if I search your car?" If the officer has a warrant, or PC (e.g. from a drug dog), or you've been arrested, then they can legally search. But citizens are not required to voluntarily release police from these obligations simply because the officer asks them to.


It really is this simple: with regard to police interactions, know the rules, or win stupid prizes. Your choice.

 

[wayneinFL]

You still have to do what they say. They're often wrong, from ignorance of the law and sometimes defiance of it, but resisting will be dealt with by force and you will not win and it won't help you later in court. Better to verbally state that you don't consent and let the courts figure it out later. There really isn't any other reasonable option.

If the cop wants to put you in jail, you're screwed. You're going to pay money to prove yourself innocent. You're going to lose your clean background with an arrest on your record. If you resist, you're just going to have medical bills on top of lawyers' fees and court costs.

Your supposed "rights" are an illusion.

That's why I said if they ask for your papers, show them your papers.

 

[gwpercle]

When I was a young fellow my Daddy taught me how to act and what to do when approached by law enforcement officers ... Smile , Be Nice , do whatever they tell you to do , smile and be nice to them ... they will smile and be nice to you ... and by all means ... Cooperate and Be Nice , talk pleasantly to them and ...
Be Nice !
You know what ... it works !
Gary

 

[Kleanbore]

Your supposed "rights" are an illusion.

What are you talking about?

Do you have a problem with the outcomes of the SCOTUS cases on this subject?

 

[wayneinFL]

When I was a young fellow my Daddy taught me how to act and what to do when approached by law enforcement officers ... Smile , Be Nice , do whatever they tell you to do , smile and be nice to them ... they will smile and be nice to you ... and by all means ... Cooperate and Be Nice , talk pleasantly to them and ...
Be Nice !
You know what ... it works !
Gary

They arrest plenty of polite criminals. if they want to arrest you, you're going to politely cooperate yourself into the back of a police car.

What are you talking about?

Do you have a problem with the outcomes of the SCOTUS cases on this subject?

Those cases are just fine after you've already lost your freedom, job, and/or property. You can pay a lawyer to use those cases to argue on your behalf. But if the police have you as a suspect, you've already lost. It's just a matter of how much you're going to lose.

A right that the government granted you doesn't mean anything if an officer can disregard it with impunity and the citizen has to pay.

 

[Kleanbore]

Those cases are just fine after you've already lost your freedom, job, and/or property.

Do you believe that officers should not be allowed to detain people under Fourth Amendment rules as currently defined?

 

[The Night Rider]

If they want to arrest you, you're going to politely cooperate yourself into the back of a police car.

If they want to arrest you, which I assume to mean that they feel like they have a legitimate reason to arrest you, you're going in the back of that police car whether you cooperate or not.

The best thing you can do is to assert your rights without resisting and let a lawyer straighten it out later

 

[shafter]

Speaking to the police when you are a potential suspect is a pretty risky thing to do which is why lawyers all agree that you should keep your mouth shut. I agree with that but....

Probable cause for arrest is a very low standard and I've seen many, many cases where one person makes allegations against another which sound very legitimate until the other person tells their side of the story and the allegations fall apart to the point where sometimes the accuser is the one arrested.

I'm not lawyer and I'm not offering legal advice or trying to say people should talk to the police but never is a very dangerous word and there are situations where talking can keep you out of jail. Use discretion and tread carefully.

 

[old lady new shooter]

PSA

Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police!

Really funny video from the Chris Rock show on how not to get your ass kicked by the police.I know they are other versions of this on YouTube but this one is...

www.youtube.com

Yep, that one's a classic, I remember when it first came out.