A gun is always loaded even when it isn't loaded.....

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He forgot he'd "rechambered" the weapon? What does that mean? He'd cycled the slide?

Then he had LOADED it. Loaded chamber indicator notwithstanding.
Atleast that's how I'm reading it.
 
FWIW, that's the way my (civilian) father always phrased it.
"Treat it like it's loaded" means "be careful" to your brain.
"All guns are always loads" means "be really freaking careful. Respect that thing."
Just some psychological thing.
 
When I'm at the range with a new shooter an explanation I use to get them in the right frame of mind is in the form of a question. "When you get in your car and turn the key what happens?" It starts up! "Did you expect it to" I say.... They look at me like I had two heads. Sometimes I see the light bulb come on pretty fast, some times I have to explain a bit further. BTW, as for me I don't care if a gun has loaded chamber indicator, I have to see an empty chamber.
 
JohnKSa said:
Carry handguns are NOT for Show and Tell. Do NOT unholster your carry gun in public unless you need to use it.

If you want to play Show and Tell with what's in your holster then you need to carry a replica gun--or better yet, not carry at all.
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Or invite the guest to whom you would like to show the gun to a private spot, then un-holster, drop the magazine, eject the round, and cycle the gun a few times all while pointed in a safe direction. But then you knew that.
 
  1. All guns are always loaded. (Treat them so!)
  2. Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target (and you have made the decision to shoot).
  4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
 
Dumb, dumb, dumb, but then smart people do stupid things sometimes. Do not rely on a mechanical chamber indicator, do not pull out a carry gun without dropping the mag and racking the slide to empty the chamber, or opening the cylinder to drop out the rounds. But in general in public is no place to do that anyway.

I "knew" my 1911 didn't have one in the chamber when I killed the dirt in front of me when I was about 17. Only good thing I did was point it in a safe direction even though I "knew" it wasn't loaded.

When I unload an auto to put it away I drop the mag, open and eject any round in it, watch the empty chamber shut, then point it down and away from me to pull the trigger before putting it away. Point it in a safe direction to pull the trigger is a habit one should develop and always do. Muscle/brain memory, muscle/brain memory, muscle/brain memory. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Yep, smart people do dumb things, and this makes us look stupid, the antis must love it.
 
Or invite the guest to whom you would like to show the gun to a private spot, then un-holster, drop the magazine, eject the round, and cycle the gun a few times all while pointed in a safe direction. But then you knew that.
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I choose not to unholster my carry gun while I'm carrying it because I think it's a bad idea. Without even trying hard, I can think of lots of bad things that can happen as a result and so far I am unable to come up with any positive outcomes which would come close to balancing out the potential negative outcomes.

In fact, I even carry in a holster that is set up so that in the event I have to disarm, I can do so (and re-arm) easily without removing the gun from the holster.

That said, if a person really can't resist the urge to play Show and Tell with their carry gun, I suppose your strategy is a fairly reasonable scenario. However, I would add that the "private spot" needs to have a safe direction (some sort of backstop that will safely stop a bullet without danger of ricochet) so that proper muzzle safety can be observed, especially while the gun is being loaded and unloaded. Once a gun comes out of the holster, then the standard muzzle safety rules apply.
 
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This thread has seemed to have gone in two directions at the same time. The thread title is regarding when to consider a firearm as loaded; subsequent discussion has gone into if/when/how you should show someone a firearm.

Regarding when to consider a firearm as loaded or unloaded, I treat myself as have severe short term memory loss. When I pick up a firearm of any type, I assume it is loaded. I proceed to check the action and magazine to either: a) prove to myself it is not; or b) prompt me to make it unloaded. Then, after proving to myself (and maybe others) that it is indeed unloaded, I will assume that state for only a very short time. If I set it down then pick it up, even a few seconds later, I repeat the process; if I hand it to someone and they hand it back to me, I repeat the process; even if it has remained in my own hand for more than just a few seconds, I repeat the process. I have never ever yet had anyone tell me I was wasting time doing that or being overly careful.

As far as showing someone a firearm, whether prompted by them or of my own intention, I usually do it one-on-one, and in total privacy from others.
 
It’s unfortunate that people are people, and we make mistakes. I’m sad that this guy in a moment of carelessness injured himself and his wife. Hopefully they will be fine, and hopefully he will have learned from a very close call.

I guess I don’t understand the end of the article.

Nearby schools were placed in a temporary lockdown for the students’ safety.
 
Given the rash of well publicized senseless acts of gun related violence of late , it is probably S.O.P. for Law Enforcement to secure the schools in the area of an incident until it is known exactly what happened , and what might happen. Seems reasonable to me.
 
I've always had issues with the way the first two safety rules are oversimplified.

If you always treat your Glock as if it is loaded, when can you pull the trigger which is part of the field stripping procedure? I think a better version of the rule is, "Treat any gun as is if it loaded unless you have verified personally that it is not and have kept it under your control thereafter."

If you are indoors, I doubt there is any direction without something you would rather not shoot. At best, some directions aren't as bad as others. A better version is, "Keep the muzzle pointed in the least harmful direction."
 
I believe the wording was to keep it as short as possible while making it's point and easy to remember.
I believe they achieved that even thought the wording is somewhat awkward.
 
This thread has seemed to have gone in two directions at the same time. The thread title is regarding when to consider a firearm as loaded; subsequent discussion has gone into if/when/how you should show someone a firearm.
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Both discussions are about loaded firearms and how they should be treated.

Playing with carry guns in public (e.g. using them for Show and Tell) is a bad idea precisely because they should be considered loaded all the time and we shouldn't play around with loaded guns--especially in public.

The exception to the "guns are always loaded rule" is cased guns where the trigger can not be manipulated and holstered guns where the trigger can not be manipulated. This is why we can go out into public with loaded, holstered, firearms without having to pay attention to where the muzzle of the gun is pointed at all times. As soon as a gun is unholstered, proper muzzle control goes into effect and it must be pointed only in a safe direction.

Finding truly safe directions in public places is not a simple task. Furthermore, even with a safe direction, an unintentional discharge in a public place is almost certainly a violation of the law and will likely result in property damage and potentially hearing damage to those nearby. And that's all in addition to the fact that it's a really bad piece of publicity for the gun rights cause in general and carry rules in specific.

Carry guns are NOT for Show and Tell. People who can not control the urge to pull out their carry guns and play with them/show them to people when they're away from home should leave them at home.
 
rskent said:
After you checked to see that it was unloaded. Duh
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That's what the rule means but it's not what it says. As written, it says that you shouldn't do anything with an unloaded gun that you wouldn't do with a loaded one. Field stripping a Glock is an obvious example why that's absurd.

The purpose of language is to communicate meaning. Precise use of words clarifies the meaning. Imprecise use obscures it. I have read that at least one of the service academies has a course in order writing. In each period, the cadets are given a military problem and a procedure for handling it. Their assignment is to write an order to implement the procedure. Each day is pass/fail. If anyone can reasonably misconstrue an order, the cadet who wrote it fails. The more I think about that course, the harder it becomes.
 
The Four Rules originated with Cooper, he expounded upon Rule Number One quite a bit. All guns are always loaded until you have personally verified it is unloaded. As soon as it leaves your immediate physical control, the process begins again.

Much simpler to remember that all guns are loaded.

Let's say I am handing you a firearm. I will check it to ensure it is not loaded. When you take it, you also check it to your satisfaction. When you return it to me, I check it because it left my physical control. Lots of checking going on. But that's what prevents stupid stuff like this from happening.

But so would a little application of Rule Two. Why did he feel the need to pull the trigger? Why was his finger even ON the trigger?

Yes, all this is Monday morning quarterbacking. What did Will Rogers say? Some people are smart enough to learn from other's mistakes. Other people have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
 


It's because it develops good firearms handling habits.

Saying that your memory is solid as a rock and your are perfect does not cut it for me and the person/persons on the wrong end of your muzzle do not get a second chance if you should find that you are not that elephant memory superman that you pictured yourself as in your fantasies prior to your negligent homicide.

I don't like people sweeping their firearms in my direction especially those unfamiliar with firearms who have them handed to them by irresponsible people who have not even taken the time to teach them the simplest basics of firearms safety.

The regularity with which I saw this stuff and the non attention it gets makes me sick.

If you are going to sweep your gun please make sure it's only your head thats at risk of getting blown off and not anyone else.

When I was a teenage boy the people (hunters) in the small town I visited said after I expressed a desire to learn to shoot if someone ever pointed a gun at them they were going to get punched in the face.

Now I am not one to agree with spontaneous violence but I have to say that is a person who knows all too well what can happen when reckless firearms handling is practiced and has a proper respect for firearms. One thing for sure is I would be safer around him when firearms are being handled.
 
Kendahl said:
The purpose of language is to communicate meaning. Precise use of words clarifies the meaning. Imprecise use obscures it. I have read that at least one of the service academies has a course in order writing. In each period, the cadets are given a military problem and a procedure for handling it. Their assignment is to write an order to implement the procedure. Each day is pass/fail. If anyone can reasonably misconstrue an order, the cadet who wrote it fails. The more I think about that course, the harder it becomes.
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Oh please
 
Many years ago I was visiting my brother on the farm site he was renting . We were doing some shooting and I emptied my Colt SA but holstered it without removing the empties. I was done shooting. After some time when all shooting was done, I removed the gun from the holster to put it away. The resulting shot fired from my "empty" gun cut the strap on my brothers sandals and put a hole in his sock. It did not break the skin , but it did make him hop and grab his foot. That was about 40 years ago, but to this day I think of it most every time I pick up a gun. I always check to make sure a gun is not loaded as soon as I pick it up.
 
Had a squib the other day at an informal practice for IDPA. Cleared the magazine racked the slide back and locked. Nothing in the chamber. Did not have a rod immediately available so I turned to see if the barrel was blocked by a bullet since it clearly had no case in it.

I was told I would have been DQd for handling a gun in an unsafe manner.

To be sure the barrel was still in the frame. But why would a locked open gun with nothing in the chamber be considered unsafe? Is one supposed to retire and disassemble?

It turned out the bullet had to be knocked out with a brass rod.
 
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