A more civilized age of CCW.

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Miami_JBT, Jun 7, 2021.

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  1. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    So what? That would mean that some involve fewer than three, and some, more. Do you know the distribution around the mean?

    Good.

    The officers to whom I referred were trying to to just that--to wait for help while truing to dissuade the attackers.

    If one could always be certain of success, on would not need to shoot at all.
     
  2. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    Climb14er
    I was not aware that the Israelis (don't know about the Mafia either), used Beretta Model 21A Bobcats. I'm do know that the Mossad and the Israeli Sky Marshals did use the Beretta Model 70S and Model 71 for many of their operations.
    Iy1KUPJ.jpg
     
  3. Terry G

    Terry G Member

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    Aren't those ambi CZ 82 holster's a hoot?
     
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  4. chicharrones

    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    An excellent choice for a Cold War ambi pistol. :cool:
     
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  5. Boomholzer

    Boomholzer Member

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    My very first CCW was a brand new stainless P232 20 some years ago. While it was euro-sexy; the relative weight, mag detent latch, and that god-awful trigger pointed me towards different solutions. I am never going back.
    Now when I'm packin a 380 its a Sig P238, close enough in name and numbers :)
     
  6. scaatylobo

    scaatylobo Member

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    To the OP.
    Love your taste in hardware ------ BUT,classy schmassy ,I want a real gun if ever in the SHTF moment.

    Retired 13 years now and still vividly recall when I could taste my butthole at the back of my throat.

    It is those moments that I carry for,heaven forbid they happen to this old man.

    So the least is a Sig P365 with a spare magazine and at least 1 'social' blade.

    Traveling anywhere outside my AO,its a G-19 and at least a S&W 360PD as a BUG.

    I plan on making it a lot more decades !
     
  7. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Plenty civilized....
     
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  8. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    We aren’t cops and very few topics here address police work. Must you troll every topic? If you don’t want to carry a older design, what does it matter to you if others do?
     
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  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    True.

    While I did refer to some police shootings, they were analogous to civilian defensive encounters. Few civilians were body cams. Sorry if I seemed to imply otherwise.

    I kindly suggest that you refrain from making such comments.

    The post to which I replied was not about "an older design".

    I pointed out that I do carry a single column pistol.
     
  10. Triggernosis

    Triggernosis Member

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    Yessir, I did. Thank you for the kind words.
    Tango_Alpha_Leather_Goods on Instagram
     
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  11. Styx

    Styx Member

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    Agreed but when ever a sub 9mm, revolver, and/or 6-8 round capacity single stack is mentioned, there will also be an operator who will start a debate.

    In the age of 24/7 media blitz, more civilians carrying than ever before, and the proliferation of small, light, and concealable carry guns for self defense by millions across the country over the last decade, you have to wonder why they have to resort to police and military incidences only. Especially when there are many, many more civilians carrying and are involved in self defense shootings vs L.E. each year.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I know of no reason why a police shooting would differ from a civilian shooting in term of rounds required to stop, penetration needed, etc. Certainly the circumstances leading up to hte acual use of fore are very likely to differ, in that the civilian will not pursue, but when the actual, justified use of deadly force takes place, a lawful stop is a lawful stop.

    I don't know how many civilian defensive shootings each year, but the police shootings are publicized and often recorded on video.
     
  13. Styx

    Styx Member

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    It was pointed out to you in two previous post. Civilians and L.E. have two separate rolls and are trying to accomplish two different task.

    In a few decades of millions of citizens carrying. In the information and technology age where cameras are everywhere, everyone has a cell phone, and news cycles are running full steam 24/7 365, no one has been able to point to even one anecdotal situation where a citizen ran out of ammo and was harmed as a result. Not one case. Zero, zilch, nada... According to an Obama era study and others, hundreds of thousands to approx 3 millon gun owners use a firearm in self defense per year. This is according to a CDC study, an Obama administration study, and others, and no one has been able to document even one anecdotal to harp on? Not one in over decades worth of time? Then the fact that approx 3 rounds arw fired in self defense shootings, and the fact that another study based on actual shootings concluded that it's extremely rear to even need a reload.

    I find it odd that some gun owners will point out and ding antigun liberals for ignoring data/satistics/facts, making assertions, and wanting to creating laws that restrick the rights of law abiding citizens, and then they themself use the same tatics to support their choice of carry gun and/or caliber.
     
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  14. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    I know we've mostly been looking at semi-autos but, let's give some time to this old feller. If it could talk...
    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course.

    But when it comes to the lawful use of deadly force, both civilians and law enforcement personnel are limited to using the minimum amount of force, and only when immediately necessary, to defend themselves or third parties from death or serious injury.

    The relevant differences are that the officer is not prohibited from being the aggressor, that in no jurisdiction must he avoid a confrontation, and that after an attacker turned tail, the officer is more likely to be involved in a subsequent confrontation after having pursued the attacker. But that would be a separate incident.

    Can you suggest any reason why, once the incident occurs and deadly force is used, the lawful defensive use of deadly force by the officer would differ from that of a civilian?
     
  16. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    This is WAY off topic. Please keep to the topic and stop trying to drag the discussion into the ditch.
     
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  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Have you been laboring under a different impression?

    You will find it n statute and in case law, and it is true in every State and US possession and territory.

    Laws pertinent to the use of deadly force apply to to everyone, and and there are no exceptions for sworn officers other than those I mentioned. You are welcome to try to cite any such exceptions, should you desire.

    At one time, officers sometimes employed deadly force to prevent the escape of felons under what had been called the "fleeing felon" rule at Common Law, but in Garner v Tennessee, the US Supreme Court ruled that, except in very limited circumstances that are most unlikely to materialize, such practice deprived citizens of their Fourth Amendment rights.

    Through the incorporation provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Fourth Amendment limitations on the use of force apply to state, territorial, and municipal law enforcement officers.

    if you are interested in learning more about these aspects of law enforcement, read Spats McGee's excellent writings about Qualified Immunity here in THR.
     
  18. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    This thread started with a nostalgic discussion of some fine pistols, some of them from the past.

    I like many of them. My favorites, I think, are the PP, that Colt "Hammerless", the weathered Colt D Frame, and some of the Berettas.

    With the exception of the revolver, I think would have difficulty getting any of them rapidly into action from concealment one handed. I do not like separate safety switches, except on a 1911.

    Carrying any of these smaller handguns involves some compromises in terms of shootability, capacity, and so on. What they provide, obviously, is convenience. I, for one, do not want to carry a full-sized double-column service pistol around all day.

    But the carry piece is a tool, and while really I like Royal Blue and case hardening, stag and ivory grips, etc., I will forgo all of that and accept plasitcs, molded grips, etc. on a firearm that I carry for the serious business of self preservation.
     
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  19. Victor252

    Victor252 Member

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    Although I've read that .380 is lacking compared to 9mm or .45, I always liked the looks of the Sig 230/232 and those Beretta models in .380. I'll probably see if I can pick up a Sig in stainless, just for the sake of the collection. I'd like to compare the old school fit and finish to my more modern Sig 938 which has an acceptable but not great level of finish, particularly the alloy frame which received gouges after just a couple hundred rounds. I'm told this is a common sign of wear on the 938 series. The ejector on my 938 is pretty flimsy as well.

    For those of you with the 232/230 models do you find that you accidentally hit the mag release while shooting?
     
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  20. Tallball

    Tallball Member

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    I wasn't looking for one, but I got this Sig P230 four or five years ago for a really good price. I really didn't know much about it, other than it was a Sig of a certain size in 380acp and I could buy it for very cheap. I read later that it's based on the Walther PP/PPK. It field strips differently and has a decocker instead of a safety, but it feels like one when you hold it.

    In a strange twist of fate, when I took it to the range for the very first time, there was a mag that fit it in their "box of mystery mags".

    It's a good shooter and reliable. It doesn't shoot any better or worse than my Hungarian PP & PPK copies, or my Russian Makarov (another PP derivative). I guess most people would say it's better looking, kind of more modern. The DA trigger isn't great, but it's okay and the SA is pretty good.

    They were available with an aluminum frame or stainless steel. This one is aluminum, IIRC. Some people don't like the magazine release at the heel of the grip, but I have had pistols like that for many years and am used to it.

    It's not in my "carry rotation", but it would do just fine if needed.

     
  21. Vern Humphrey

    Vern Humphrey Member

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    You know what they say about a guy who would bring a knife to a gun fight?
     
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  22. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    Yeah, they say, "Wow! He gutted that poor slob before he could get his carry piece out. That was quick! Poor, poor, Leroy Brown..." :)

    I really, seriously hope you are not suggesting I break the law. Because that would be wrong.

    Now, that doesn't mean I wont' carry a gun on my own property. I'll usually slip a pistol into my back pocket before going outside to investigate a night-time thumpety-bump that was obviously NOT a four-legged critter. Sometimes that old Colt DS-38Spl and sometimes that P-64 9mm Makarov. Sometimes something else. It depends what's handy and discreet. That's why I like those old pocket pistols and snubby revolvers. Last time something like that happened it was a Mexican farm hand from down the road who had a little too much to drink and got lost on his way back to the bunks. Me in my slippers and robe pointed him in the right direction, declined the offer of a drink (very kindly) and sent him on his merry way. Before that was many years ago when a couple of teenagers pulled onto the wrong drive to make out. I'm guessing the driver (male???) thought our drive was an abandoned dirt road. Fancy car. City kids. :confused: A blast of the Maglite and a shout - "Hey, what're you kids doing there!?" :D like I didn't know - got them leaving real quick. Again, in my slippers and robe. Don't people keep decent hours anymore? Every other time the thumpety-bump of a two-legged intruder has turned out to be... a four-legged critter. I let them be. As long as they aren't aggressive or breaking a bunch of stuff, we can live together.
     
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  23. sgt127

    sgt127 Member

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    An old Dallas PD investigator I knew (years ago) would go to an Officer involved shooting.
    First Question: “how many rounds did the Officer fire?”

    If the answer was 10-15 + he was pretty sure it was a younger Officer who came on to the department and started his career with a semi auto.

    If the Officer had fired 1-2 or less than 6 rounds, he was pretty sure it was a senior Officer who still carried a revolver. OR had transitioned to an auto. But still had the mindset of firing individual rounds rather than hiding behind a wall of bullets and firing everything he had.

    He said he was rarely wrong.

    The rate of fire is inversely proportional to the number of rounds left in the magazine.
    -RC
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  24. DR505

    DR505 Member

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    Well, more pictures and less acrimony are needed for this thread. I think this is worthy of posting, one of my favorites:
    51234556521_88423f29df_o.jpg
     
  25. GeoDudeFlorida

    GeoDudeFlorida Member

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    Size and weight of a PPK in 9mm Makarov. Holds six in the mag, no slide release, heel magazine release. The grips are aftermarket and DEFINITELY reduce recoil. You really have to mean it to empty one of these little gems.
    [​IMG]
    At 25 feet I can put all six in a B5 style target (25 YARD rapid fire target) and fairly quick, too. Swapping mags is not so rapid. I expect to have to use it at less than 12 feet, honestly. It's a last resort if some unexpected visitor stops being friendly and won't leave my property. Last time I called the Sheriff's it took them two hours to arrive.
     
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