A New American Civil War - West Vs. East?

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It may, indeed, but I think the new battle lines seem to be not between races, but between the haves and the have-nots.

The best advice I can think of for anyone who thinks there's the slightest possibility your job might be sold out to the foreigners is to start brainstorming about starting your own business, even just a side-line to start with. Base it out of your home, at least at first. Get independent of large corporations. I'm doing this, and while it's not very successful yet, I am making some money and doing things I like to do (writing and coaching people for fitness and triathlons.)

I'm trying to nudge my husband into talking with some of his entrepreneurial-minded friends and starting some sort of software or web-based business. Of course, if the S really H's TF, that'll probably go down.
But it's something.

Start thinking about what you can do to work for yourself, or with your friends! You don't have to plan it all out in one day--it will evolve. Just start thinking about getting free from the corporate shackles. (I did this 2 years ago because I just couldn't stand how I was treated. I was a mechanical engineer.)
 
I agree there's fault on both sides of the fence. That's why I'm a moderate. (You do, however, see Republicans much more represented in the ruling class than Dems, though, since they tend to have more money. Not that I'm knocking money--would love to have more of it!)
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Actually, the Dems are every bit as wealthy, and every bit as well represented in the "ruling class" as the Republicans. The three wealthiest U.S. Senators are Democrats, by the way.

What should be of great concern to everyone is that we are losing the middle class here in America. The middle class, backbone of the economy, traditional route up for many people, is being systematically destroyed by the upper class who have decided there's no money in looting the pockets of the poor so they're making their profits now by exporting white-collar jobs.
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"Looting the pockets of the poor" has never been profitable. The reason why these corporations make their profits by exporting jobs is because they need to make profits somehow, in the face of confiscatory taxes and onerous regulation via EPA, EEOC, ADA, and a zillion more federally-created bureaucracies, each with a bunch of self-important parasites in charge who can penalize you to death or shut you down in the blink of an eye.

Corporate profits are what drives an economy. If nobody is allowed to make profits (in the name of "fairness"), nobody has an incentive to create a business. The government does not create jobs; it never has. Private enterprise creates jobs via profits and expansion. Government just loots the fruit of someone else's labor...either in the form of corporate and dividend taxes, sales taxes, income taxes from the pockets of the employees, or a million other taxes and tariffs.

Somebody needs to stick up for the American middle class, and the people who come closest tend to be the Democrats, which is why I usually vote for them while carping loud and long to them about gun control.
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If you think that the Democrats care about the middle class, you have a nasty surprise coming your way. The main reason why Democrats are competitive in any election is the fact that they basically buy their votes with confiscated money. If it wasn't for the welfare cities voting almost uniformly Democrat, and outvoting the country just by sheer numbers, there wouldn't have been a Democrat in the White House since JFK. His successor LBJ started the Democratic trend of promising tax money in exchange for votes, and calling it "compassion".

I'm not saying the Republicans are much better. Both big parties are Statists, and they only differ in the nature of their pet prohibitions. Neither Republicans nor Democrats have a problem with reaching into the wallets of the middle class and the upper class.

If you're middle class right now, you need to WORK LIKE HELL to try to get yourself into the upper class, or you'll find yourself poor withing 10 years, nickled and dimed by bank fees, credit card fees, communications fees, and taxes.
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All the bank fees and credit card fees imposed upon me by my banks were agreed to me via contract. All those fees are trivial compared to the amount of taxes I am forced to pay at the point of a gun every year.

You've almost realized why this country is in a downward spiral. We're being bled dry by our government, whether it has Republicans or Democrats at the helm. You can't open a lemonade stand anymore in this country without a permit from City Hall, an environmental impact study, pre-payment of one year's worth of business tax in advance according to projected profits, mandatory sexual harassment education for the employees, a workforce that exactly represents the ethnic makeup of the neighborhood, and a wheelchair ramp at the curb. Is it a wonder so many people sit back and happily collect "free money" rather than start their own lemonade stand?

Both political parties balme different sources for our misery: the Dems blame "Big Business", and the Republicans blame illegals, swarthy people, and labor unions. The truth of the matter is that both parties love to incite class warfare, because it distracts the lot of us from realizing just who is doing the screwing here. And don't kid yourself...Democrats are just as good as Republicans when it comes to pork barrel projects, and the appropriation of money that was made by someone else.
 
Here's my worst nightmare (I wrote a fiction novel about this, and need to edit it and try to sell it):

The middle class ends up in indentured servitude.

Couldn't happen? Think again. Consumer debt is at an all-time high. Now, huge numbers of those consumers' jobs are being replaced by H1-B's or shipped overseas. The debtors (credit card companies and banks) see this, and with their usual vulture-like ingenuity TURN IT INTO AN OPPORTUNITY!

"That's right, Mr. In-debt-and-no-job-Consumer, we can make your little financial difficulties just GO AWAY, and you won't have to take any more responsibility for them. Just sign right here, and we'll make you a Voluntary Financial Associate of ViMastAmCap Credit Corp. For the next seven years, you'll live in our housing, we'll feed you, and you'll work for us, when and how we tell you to. You won't have to make any more decisions. Won't that be easy?"

Then, in a few more years, they'll tinker a bit more with the laws, and introduce Involuntary Financial Associates---meaning, they're allowed to shanghai you into indentured servitude if your debt-to-income ration hits a certain level. That's where the handcuffs come out--no more volunteering, they come get you.

Several problems get solved at once:
1. The banks and credit cards get their money out of broke people
2. The broke people have something to do, and aren't roaming the streets
3. The sheeple of America, who hate taking responsibility and thinking for themselves, don't have to anymore
4. America once again gets a source of cheap labor.

Yeah, the politicians will allow it. You bet.

Get out of debt now, while you still can.
 
Our current condition of taxing everything and regulating everything is strangling business growth.

Businesses are becoming so scared of noncompliance with arcane, ambiguous regulations that they would rather not put their necks on the chopping block. But, compliance is hideously expensive, too. We are beginning to reach the point where the costs of compliance will exceed the costs of noncompliance.

I too see the growth of a fuming, brooding anger in America. Hardworking honest people are tired of seeing politicians cater to "special interests" and are tired of seeing more and more nickel and dime taxes, costs, fees, and licensing. Hell, I read today that Seattle is thinking of a "Latte tax" of 10cents on every designer coffee sold--but it's for the cheeeeeeeeeeeeeldren. Now SCOTUS has OKed racial discrimination in education for the next 25 years, according to Justice O'Connor. Why work hard when you can just collect on other people's guilt?

The old bumper sticker "Keep working! Millions on welfare depend on you!" is no longer a wry joke but is becoming a bitter battle cry of the overtaxed.

Americans used to believe that the government was the servant of the people, but now both government and people believe it's the other way around--and the people are getting tired of it.
 
California is the great laboratory model. You can plainly see
the Crisis right here. In my view this state, where I have lived
most of my life and which I still love, even as I contemplate
moving away from it, is New Cuba.

Do I expect the replacement of Gray Davis, should that happen, to
change anything? No. S&P zeroed in the underlying problem by
dropping CA's bond rating by three notches, citing doubts that
revenues would match expenditures. That cold statement didn't faze
the pols. The budget is actually a couple of per cent bigger than
last year's, with $11 billion to be rolled over in debt over several
years (probably illegal) and a remaining shortfall of $8 billion
going into next year. THAT is a solution?

Well, anything but address all of the issues eloquently raised above.
What is happening in California is happening nationally, and the
only difference is that CA doesn't have a printing press or an
ever-expanding debt ceiling to hide the problem of devalued labor
and currency to go along with shrinking freedoms.
 
Some of you apparantly view politics the same way I do....hence my moniker. I used to be a true Repubican conservative. The whole Ronald Reagan thing. My turning point came under Bush 41. As I see it, the R's have been just as complicit in the problems we face today as the D's...they've just had a better rhetoric to my ears. I didn't vote for Bush 43, as I remain deeply critical of his father, and I fell somewhat for the "lightweight" label he acquired. In fairness, he's become a much better president than I ever imagined...certainly the best president in my lifetime. I'll vote for him in '04. Gore was/is one of the biggest idiots ever to make it to the national stage. How he got to the nomination amazes me. As I see it, his one redeeming act is that at least he had the sense to get out of the current D nomination sweepstakes. The current 9 D nominees make Gore look like the reincarnation of Roosevelt in comparision.

I'm under no illusion that I'll ever see a Libertarian candidate for national office taken seriously. There's simply too many people who aren't involved enough to know that, in spite of the many differences between a R candidate and a D candidate, these two parties operate very much alike. However, I will say that some R's have had temporary successes by adopting libertarian views. Goldwater ("I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"), Reagan ("The taxing power of the government must be used to provide revenues for legitimate government purposes. It must not be used to regulate the economy or bring about social change. We've tried that, and surely we must able to see it doesn't work.") and many elements of Gingrich's 'Contract With America' are essentially libertarian views. Republicans can have success with libertarianism, but they all too often fall back on their nature to increase the size and scope of government while telling us they're keeping us from the socialism that the Democrats envision.

I work for a Fortune 500 company with somewhere near 70,000 employees. Our CEO is constantly in Washington DC-- lobbying for this, testifying for that--whatever. To look at him, you might think of the stereotype of Mr. Moneybags...one who ought to be a Republican. Yet he's not. He's a big-time supporter and contributor to Democratic causes and candidates. I think it's a mistake to believe that the big-moneyed business leaders favor Republicans. My view is that the big money in this country likes a big government...as long as they can continue to profit from government policies. The biggest problem in this approach is that companies and CEOs concern themselves with such a short time horizon (i.e., the next quarterly report), that they're unwilling to face bigger problems further out on the horizon if it means the next quarter's profits will be impacted. Hence, government has been leading us in a direction many of us believe will lead to ruin.
 
I agree with some of your points, although I liked Gore and voted for him. (Please--no anti-Gore flames, he's out of national picture now.)

I think Howard Dean is the Dem's best shot in '04. I count it as a mark in his favor that Handgun Control, Inc. is severely pissed-off at him (hey, he's the governer of VERMONT, where they have open carry!)

I don't buy letting corporations off the hook on the exporting of American jobs because they've been highly regulated. There were some good reasons why they were regulated in the first place. Remember things like the Triangle Shirtwaist fire about 100 years ago? Women workers burned to death because a textile company locked 'em in to keep 'em working.
Why can't these so-called beleagured companies work to change the system, instead of gutting the American economy? I honestly think that greed didn't just vanish with the '80's.

And Marko, I'd appreciate it if you didn't patronize me by using phrases like "you've almost realized why..." That sounds like you're some sort of all-knowing person with all the answers. Accept that the things I realize are different from the things you realize. We all see things differently. I really hate it when one side paints the other as "puppies who just don't have their eyes open yet." It's demeaning.
 
Tam, corporations exist in order to make a profit; without a profit they cannot exist. Corporations have no inherent duty to work to change any system. A group of corporate officers might work to change a political system, but only as it enhances profits.

The issue of profitability is why corporations are "exporting jobs". Profitability has been on the decline for over 20 years, now. Today, it is almost non-existent, if you take a serious look at the various companies of the S&P 500. We as a nation can no longer coast on the heavy-manufacturing advantages we had at the end of WW II. The same holds true for "Information Age" production.

American consumers are voting in favor of exporting jobs, every time they buy something made in Asia (e.g.). "Consumerism" is freedom of choice: WalMart or Neiman-Marcus. The only way industrial jobs in manufacturing--those highly-paid blue-collar jobs--can be kept here is for average prices be higher and consumers not be able to buy as many things. The same holds true for IT jobs, as well. Imagine the cost of a computer made entirely of US-made components, as well as the added monthly ISP costs of US-only customer service calls.

I don't have an answer. However, I believe the points I've made here are indicative of the general air of malaise extant nationwide. Nobody seems to have an answer to that ancient question, "Quo vadis?"

Art
 
What has happened is the cost of US labor is far too high to compete on a global basis. What is a high cost? It has two components. First, market value driven by pure market forces. Second, mandated cost both direct and indirect. An example of a direct mandated cost is social security tax, medicaid tax, workman's comp, unemployment insurance, etc. These are mandated costs which do nothing to increase productivity or alleviate a competitive situation. An example of an indirect mandated cost is the cost of all kinds of regulatory compliance such as OSHA, EPA, FDA, USDA, ad nauseum.

I once discussed the trend of offshoring textile jobs with a textile executive. He asked me what I thought the labor component was of the total cost structure of textiles produced in the US. I guessed 30%. He laughed and said it was less than 5%. How can you justify offshoring for a few percentage points on the cost structure. He said you can't. It is justified of the reduction in cost of compliance related to health, environmental, safety, AND LITIGATION PREMIUM.

Now combine artificially high costs of labor with the complete remove of barriers to exit and you have what is going on right now. NAFTA and the WTO and a host of trade agreements was posited on reducing the barriers to trading goods, not the export of jobs. Traditional manufacturing is climbing all over itself heading for the exits. Information based jobs are next and the rate at which they will leave will be astounding. Sending a job offshore is not free trade. It has implications the likes of which we have only begun to examine.

Meanwhile the political and ruling classes play deaf, dumb, and blind.

Yeah, people are a little grumpy right now. Well they should be. Taxpayers and former taxpayers watch what is happening while those responsible for the mess (I call it the ruling class) perceive no problem at all.

And that boys and girls is how revolutions get started.
 
Guns will be the issue. Freedom. And I think the "militia" will take on a new skin. Individual acts.

I think many lives will be destroyed as the result of this tyranny. Many will then be tired of living, having lost everything, but not willing to allow this country to perish. Life sacrifices will follow.

Hey, how many reps are there in govt? How many of us will be willing, after having lost everything to these wolves, will think twice about killing a politician?

The difference between us and terrorists would be to specifically target those individuals responsable. There are more of us than they, and guns will always be available on the black market for our purposes.


Pain will supply courage and anger. Just my thought. :)
 
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Ah, Nightwatch...you too have read Unintended Consequences by our very own John Ross.

You may be right with the SHTF-Civil-War being begun by an individual, and not by any group associated with a viewpoint.

Those two knuckleheads who became known as the "Beltway Snipers" absolutely tied in knots the law enforcement agencies of 2 states and the fed's in DC. Imagine the chaos that someone(s) who wasn't absolutely stupid (as these two clearly are) might foster. Scary, isn't it.
 
IT is being outsourced. Great. I just happen to be pursuing a degree in that feild, and now it will be toilet paper by the time I graduate. I knew that IT was seeing tough times and that they werent due to let up soon, but that is the last thing I wanted to know. Great, just friggin' great.

The price of goods and services wouldnt be so damned high if all these useless ninnies would stop suing everyone for anything and everything. I have gotten scared of saying "so sue me" when someone whines about something I did or said because they might actually do it, which is pretty damned pathetic.

So, how does everyone think it will go down and be sustained? Will it be a 'Nam like situation, where the battle-lines more encircle the country (hence guerrilla warfare) or will there actually be a front? Do you think that there will be occupation of sympathetic places (cities, counties, states) like in the Civil War?
 
Art,
I realize that companies are in business to make a profit. I read "The goal." I've got no problem with that--Lord knows, I'd like to make more profit, myself! But I feel they also have a duty to be good corporate citizens, seeings as they are legal entities with much of the same rights (to sue and be sued) as individuals. And we individuals have responsibilities as well as rights.

To me, part of being a good and moral corporate citizen is taking care of your employees who MADE you profitable and big in the first place. Also part of being a good corporate citizen is trying to buy/hire American first.
As a consumer of these goods, I try to buy American, if it is at all possible.
I don't see companies doing the same with regard to new jobs.

As someone else pointed out, it is incredibly short-sighted of companies to export American jobs. Don't they realize that they can only do that for so long before there are too few people here in America with an actual income who can afford their products? We can only be a nation of consumers for so long before we consume ourselves.

It's all fine and well to support politicians and parties who don't want gun control, but as I've said before, if all the jobs go away and we don't have any money, we won't be able to afford any ammo (or new guns!) (My point being that it isn't wise to base votes on a single issue.)

And yeah, it's depressing to be a boomer, and to watch the thriving America of my youth (late 50's, 60's, and early 70's) go straight into the toilet right in front of my eyes.

Well, this old girl ain't goin' down without a fight, I'll tell you what! Militia? Sign me up, bad knee and all. I'll do what I can. That's one of the best redeeming quality we Americans have, I think: when it really gets tough, we get our dander up. And right now's the time to have it up.
 
I think Tam's point is well-taken: American businesses exist within
America and need to consider the culture within which they operate.
Globalism that enhances corporate profits might make sense if American
workers actually owned the corporations, other than by participation in
retirement funds, that are making higher profits by international trade
and outsourcing. But that's not the case and may, in fact, be a
significant flaw in our current economic structure.

We all want to live better materially, but my view is that a consumer
culture is, increasingly, a passive and weak culture. Nations are
strongest when they are most productive; so too cultures and individuals.
There is something effete and narcissistic, to me, about where we
have arrived. Increasingly we have to import people to do the essential
work--in science and engineering--that has created our material success.
Our children prefer to be "American idols" of one kind or another,
looking for the quick buck and the sexy style, rather than the pursuit
of quality and the joy of real creativity. (Remember Pirsig's Zen and
the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?). Yes, it is all related.
 
You people are very tough on the corporations, Tam in particular, and I'm not sure that you're all wrong.

But, as noted, corporations exist to generate a profit, as do all business ventures. No profits, no companies, or, in our current situation, perhaps ,
"good and moral corporate citizens" who build there and sell here. Which can't continue forever, from an economic point of view, for reasons to obvious to detail.


You've got to recognize the tax and regulation situation as a major factor in the decline of our nation's future prospects. After all, when employed, I may make four times my Indian counterpart's salary, but 50% of mine goes to income and social security taxes before I even cash the check.

Then, you've got to add in the added costs of regulation: how much would my squash cost if the fuel tax, labor insurance requirements, and many other "overhead" costs, were eliminated? Who can tell, for sure, exactly what they actually pay in "taxes" these days?

So, given the load, we can't afford to work for less than we do, the government can't shrink, since it has to buy votes to sustain itself, and the corps go elsewhere, and for a good, logical reason: they'll die if they try to remain here!

If you were personally a corporation, what else would your response be, as a "good and moral corporate citizen", to (Sorry about this one, Tam.) your impending rape?


I don't think that the fight will ever get started, except for a few of us who've had about all they'll take, and they can then be expected to be painted with the Waco brush, and so tossed into the trash as unworthy to participate in the new "golden" age.

I hold no hope that thing'll change any time soon, but I grew up in the 50's, have no kids, and have the irresistable urge to stay around and watch which way the water rushes as the mess goes down the tubes.
 
Well, yeah--having worked for four different corporations as a mechanical engineer, I feel like I've been royally screwed over by them. I've also hit my head on the glass ceiling so many times I've got a lumpy noggin.

Those corporations have a LOT of money. If they feel they're excessively regulated, why not try to lobby to do something about it, instead of throwing away their workers like used kleenexes?

No sympathy from me!
 
And I think the "militia" will take on a new skin. Individual acts.
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One thing that many people in this forum fail to remember is that the vast majority of our Military would not go along with gun confiscation. If we had 8yrs of Clinton government, I would not rule out the potential for a military coup from the United States Military.

The Liberals are capable of creating chaos and confusion but not getting the US military to act on its on civilian population.

Do you think Republicans and Libertarians could get the US military to act against and gun confiscating Federal government? I think so.

I'm not some lone 2nd Ammendment lover. There are Generals and Senators that would take up arms against 'domestic enemies'. They aren't going to do it now, but I'm sure they'd come out of the woodwork if need be.
 
Uh, SodaPop, we DID have eight years of Clinton's rule, stymied as he was by the GOP's in Congress. Damn, I wish we could go back to the days when the worst thing we had to worry about was Monica's stupid little blue dress!
 
Uh, SodaPop, we DID have eight years of Clinton's rule, stymied as he was by the GOP's in Congress
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And how popular was Clinton with the military? Who was it that said he better not go near the military bases because his life was in danger? I believe it was Senator Graham.

I'm not going to kill every person that violates my Constitutional rights. If someone, whether they are Federal or State government, LEO or an individual, I'm going to hire a lawyer instead of taking up arms (no lawyer jokes please).;)

The reasons for me to take up arms against another human being are very few. As long as I can still vote and speak freely my guns will stay in my safe and my CCW holster.

The damage the Clinton administration has done is not irreparable. Our Supreme Court recently made a stupid decision on 'Affirmative action, but I believe that is still a minor issue (not worth taking up arms over). All hope is not lost IMHO. We can still vote and make a difference with public service and volunteerism.

There are two people that come to the TFL(and now THR gatherings) I organize that have run for a Senate seat in Delaware and now one is running for Mayor of Cherry Hill, NJ.
 
Ah, vets comment as you think best.

A military combat unit is primarily dedicated to itself.
Each person may have a view, but they're young and live in the here and now.
They might get some resistance at the first order, but a general courts martial will enhance their right to give orders.

And, they'll do exactly what they're told to do, within some bounds...

They'll be nice, present in forces too large to allow any effective defense, but shoot one and then, it'd be an us against them fight.

And nobody with any sanity doubts how that would go.

Been there, and remember what I thought, and how the system works.

Do NOT count on the military to either protect you or to disobey orders. They'll do neither.
 
Hillary, if elected, is going to have a very tough road to hoe as
Commander-in-Chief.

As for what the military would do in a serious Constitutional crisis, I
don't think that is a matter to be resolved at the squad, platoon, or
company level. What will matter is what the highest ranking officers
think. These are educated men who understand the Constitution and have
sworn to protect it and understand what might constitute an illegal
order. I believe they all have a very good sense of smell too. There
is no love among them for Clintonian mischief or decadence.
 
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