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A new taste is developing for a 410 side by side

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by Frostbite, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    It took a long time, but I have checked two boxes that needed it in the past 3 years ; the rifle barrel (and stock, and forearm and appropriate scope) for my Encore, then a .223 (and appropriate new stock, scope, reloading kit and bipod) for target work. Now that these have been satisfied, like every human, I am creating myself a new need. I must be getting older with time, I find myself lurking at the idea of a side by side. I would not have thought getting there only a few years ago. Turning forty did no do me any good! Even worst, I am attracted to a 410. The 223 made me realise I don’t need recoil to be happy. No budget for fine jewels here, I am reaching out for suggestions, and if possible comments on the 26” Baïkal. Thank you all in advance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  2. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    They are like hens teeth in the Made in America models!
     
  3. kudu
    • Contributing Member

    kudu Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe save a bit more and look at the CZ, I think it's the Sharptail. Can be had for about $950 if you look. Saw one on Armslist last week for IIRC $850 lightly used. I have one that is a Huglu pre CZ .410. Tight chokes, they pattern full and Mod but with slugs they are only 3" away from each other at 50 yards. Took me a few rounds of skeet before I finally ran a 25 straight with that gun. When I was dialed in I was destroying the clays. I could usually tell where I hit the target with the front or back being sheared away to dust.

    From what I have seen of the Baikal shotguns they leave a bit to be desired, rough actions, fit is so-so. Some work others may make a trip or two back to be worked on. If you only will shoot a few rounds a year out of the gun, go cheap and it might be worth it.
     
  4. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    This gun is solely intended to accompany me in search of rabbits and such gentle critters in the forest, but I do like a gun that works. Will take a look at the CZ option, I know a place where I could order either.
     
    Olon likes this.
  5. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    A side by side .410 would be interesting. I'm no help in suggesting one but .410 can be fun and challenging.

    I got exposed to .410 bore shooting competitive skeet. My tube set includes a .410 pair and my Browning Citori is a joy to shoot with the .410 tubes in it. Definitely an attitude adjustment when shooting .410 though.

    As a result, I got a Mossberg 500 in .410 and use it for critter control around my hobby horse farm. Later, I stumbled into a Browning Cynergy over/under in .410 bore. I've enjoyed playing with it on the skeet field once and a while.

    Side by sides can be fun. I have a couple that were my paternal grandfather's guns that I enjoy to shoot once in a while.

    Good luck with your search.
     
  6. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    We ordered one years ago for a gentleman. Ordered it from Harden and Knight out of Florida. Like ordering a car. Basic boxlock double, X dollars. Specify wood, steel (bohler, krupp, fluid), stock style, engraving, selective trigger, ejectors, etc. We spec'd out a double .410, full and mod, 3 inch, pistol grip, beavertail, selective trigger, selective ejectors, etc. 1968 price was, IIRC, about $350. He traded it to us a few years later for a contender and two barrels. Dad kept it. When he was about to check out, he gave it to my brother and I to "share". In about '80, brother contacted the vendors to see what a dupe would cost. $1500. We decided to keep sharing. I now have it and hunt at least once a year with it.
    Not a big dollar gun or name but AYA made some good guns. Another friend ordered a 10 ga double, straight grip, beavertail forend, outside hammers, 3 1/2" chambers, and a leg of mutton case. This was about 1969 and he paid around $400.
    Dont know if they're still in business but the guns were 10X better than Stevens 311s.
     
  7. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    Side by sides are just really cool stage coach era guns! How could anyone NOT want one? I have waffled back and forth between a .410 and a 20 gauge for years. Every time I start looking seriously at the available options I always get STUCK... on: what do I need one for?.. and would I really get much (any) use out of one? If you clear those hurdles better than I have my recommendation would be to do some reading to find out what's what.... then when you come across a good one that meets your needs you will have the knowledge to "pull the trigger". BUT I seldom buy new and cherish a quality old firearm that has been around the block a few times more than a brand new one that is of lesser quality.

    BTW: I do have my fathers really nice Ithaca pump 12g so it is difficult for me to justify another shotgun.

    Definitely do NOT look at 3 barrel and 4 barrel shotguns and ponder how cool they look!
     
  8. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    I also own a pump twelve. I additionally have unlimited access to my dad's guns, which include a Superposed and an original A5 in twelve, both made in Belgium, of course, a 1100 and a single break open (heavy, indestructible type, won at a party) in twenty. To say the truth, I could not justify the acquisition of any firearm, if it had to be logically argued, since I don't foresee clay in four gauges ever and we collectively own all the rifles needed and more to cover every hunt that could be fancied here. A good quality semi in ten gauge could be of use for geese, but frankly, I tried geese hunting once and did not feel under gunned with my pump twelve. Still, I want a .410 side by side, just because it would likely be lighter than the .22/20 ga I have been looking at. It also looks just so, how should I put it, just what is needed for the job, no more, no less, and I find them incredibly elegant weapons. My usage of the word need was perhaps exaggerated .
     
  9. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

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    Good Luck in your search!
     
  10. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Thanks, it seems my options are rather limited.
     
  11. Sappyg2.0

    Sappyg2.0 Member

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    If you live near an Academy sports you might be able to catch one of those SxS Yildis in 410. I got mine about 3 years ago and thoroughly enjoy it. I think I paid $450 for it. Fit and finish isnt bad. The wood is beautiful and its light as a feather.
     
  12. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Nice, I did not know that brand. I just checked their website and the gunstore in the nearest town is listed as a dealer. I might visit sooner than later. It sure looks better than the Baïkal and from what you tell me would cost less than a CZ. Thank you for opening my horizon.
     
  13. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    I have a Baikal 20 o/u I bought many years ago. It is somewhat rough and stiff, much more than a Turkish gun is...

    I’ll say go with the Turkish one, especially if the price is right. :thumbup:

    Stay safe!
     
  14. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Rough and stiff... Not very appealing. How about function, has it failed in any way? A nearby dealer describes Baïkal weapons as tanks, almost indestructible workhorses. Kudu shared a different opinion. I am leaning towards the Yilniz right now, but in no hurry at all. CZ has a good reputation and I would not second guess their quality, but they are pricier. My Winchester Defender is Turkish, it is well made and I have no complaint about it. It was also cheaper than many other options when I bought it. It doesn't look bad, but I am now searching for something else. I would appreciate a nicer gun in .410, one with plain good looking wood well fitted to a nicely blued metal. Still, function is always key to me. No fine jewel with gold engraving, nothing extravagant, as mentioned, but still, a tad better looking gun. If possible, I will try to handle the three mentioned, but I think I will have to order one to see one. This is why all the input I can get here is so precious. Most times, used .410s here are older cheap single shot, often showing neglect, when it is not abuse. None of my bought guns was ever neglected, but all have seen bad weather. I am looking for something new, something blue, not something old, and without having to borrow... I am ready to wait a little to put aside the money, but not forever.
     
  15. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    Stoeger makes an affordable and serviceable SXS Coach gun. A bit clunky for its size but it shoots just fine.
    ATI makes a light and handy O/U with changeable chokes.
    Pete
     
  16. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Thanks Pete, the Stoeger Uplander Field is also available in .410 from what I just saw in their catalog. I could not find anything about ATI shotguns in Canada except for parts branded as such in a quick search. As for a dealer, I guess if they sell Beretta they will also sell Stoeger, from what I understood. Another one to take a look at if possible. This is going somewhere!
     
  17. George P

    George P Member

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    SxS?
    410 used from Ugartechea (Uggie), maybe a used AyA 4/53; if those are a little high, then some from one of the Turkish makers..........possibly a Dickinson from Cabela's?
     
  18. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    Just stumbled upon the Akkar Churchill Gold 536 for $997,97 CAD during Internet research. It is the upper limit of what I would pay, I would appreciate a little less. Are they good guns? I have made my mind on one thing: I want a single selective trigger, which they offer. At 5.40 lbs, it could be a charm to walk with one.

    This one brings another question: what is the advantage of an English stock? It looks more fragile.
     
  19. kudu
    • Contributing Member

    kudu Moderator Staff Member

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    The English stock works better with double triggers, easier for your hand to slide back to the second trigger. I really like the Prince of Wales style with a slight pistol grip, still slender but not abig full pistol grip.

    I have a Remington 870 Special Field that has the straight English stock. It feels good on the gun with a 24" barrel, not sure it would with anything longer.

    Stock preference is going to be a personal matter of how it feels for you.
     
  20. George P

    George P Member

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    My 20 SxS has DT, splinter and English with 28" barrels...................SMOKES skeet targets even with my 3/4oz reloads; at .009 and .016, it is a little tight on the IC side and in the middle on the M side and it swings beautifully.

    That said, on a gauge-correct frame size for either a 28 or 410, I want 30" barrels minimum to help improve the swing dynamics (moment of inertia), otherwise the barrels feel WAY too whippy for me; I am talking about good SxS guns that will weight less than 6# in either bore size.
     
  21. Bud0505

    Bud0505 Member

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    I don’t know if ammunition costs are a consideration but in my area .410 ammo is twice the cost of 20 or 12 gauge. Maybe even three times as expensive. Something to think about if you are going to be shooting much.
     
  22. Frostbite

    Frostbite Member

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    No, ammunition cost is not that important, as I don't plan to shoot volume out of this 410 bore.

    It will be a hunting shotgun, which will surely translate much more into a lot of walking with the gun in hand, or hung on the shoulder, than shooting many rounds per outing, from the experience I have gathered so far. After all, I have a twelve gauge for volume shotgun shooting and, happily, it likes cheap ammo!

    In terms of effective range on small game, mostly hare and grouse, is there a lot of difference between 12 gauge and 410?
     
  23. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    With a MEC 600jr, reloading .410 can be very cost effective. Of course, if you are not shooting it much, ammunition cost becomes irrelevant. You will pay the going rate.

    The advantages to reloading is that you get to load what you want and are not concerned with what your local store has on hand.

    For the same size shot at the same muzzle velocity, there is not alot of difference in the killing potential between 12 gauge and .410.

    The advantage of 12 gauge is the greater number of pellets to fill the pattern. For .410, a tighter choke would be required to keep the pattern density the same as 12 gauge which means your pointing of the gun needs to be more precise. Also, at longer ranges, the greater number of pellets in a 12 ga shell keeps the pellet density higher and reduce the chance a target can get through the shot column. So, at longer ranges, a 12 ga will have a higher density of hits than a .410.

    Around my hobby horse farm, I have a Mossberg 500 in .410 for critter control. It works fine on small critters.
     
  24. Sappyg2.0

    Sappyg2.0 Member

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    Yes there is. A lot... with a 410 your shot has to be on and usually no more than 25 yards. You'll need to choose your shot carefully and pass on anything of questionable distance or size. #6 shot is the biggest shot I would consider with a 410. If you think you need bigger shot or more distance you probably need a bigger gun.
     
    George P likes this.
  25. farm23

    farm23 Member

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    I hunt birds with a SxS 16ga and would love a 28 and a 410. The Turkish makers mentioned above can be worthwhile. I have accumulated old Ithaca guns and have been very happy. The old ones will not have chokes but I like old guns.
     
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